On 11/24/2014 at 10:37 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: > On 25/11/14 00:53, The Wanderer wrote: > >> On 11/24/2014 at 02:56 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote: >>> It's illogical to upgrade and not expect change - even when >>> electing (as Debian allows) to retain the same init system. >> >> It's illogical to upgrade and not expect *improvement*, > > Good luck with that (expecting experience to triumph over optimism > might be difficult to reconcile with so many posts from those > opposed to a new default init). I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. My point was simply to disagree with your assertion about what it is and is not logical to expect from an upgrade. Among possibly other things, that's partly a philosophical point, and partly one about the definitions of words. > I'd recommend weighting the outcomes before embarking on an > adventure with expectations. e.g. I admin systems that still run > old-stable because the "advantages" of moving to Wheezy do not > provide a compelling argument to do so. YMMV. Everyone has an > opinion, no one "owns" facts. And I'm sure I don't understand what you're getting at here. I'm at least as confused by this as you seem to have been by parts of my own post. >> That depends on what you (or they) count as a "hit". >> They will certainly > > hopefully, be doing a "little" research before banging the enter > key... Please note that dist-upgrade requires more action on the part > of the user than just that. ...by what definition of "requires"? It is certainly possible to dist-upgrade by simply running 'apt-get dist-upgrade' and hitting Enter repeatedly. Thus, dist-upgrade does not - in the literal sense - "require" any more action than that. >>> Those that deploy customisations in the "Debian Way" should file >>> bug reports if those customisations are not supported *if* they >>> change init systems. Upgrades have *always* supported >>> customisations done the "Debian Way" - and I have every >>> confidence they will continue to do so >> >> Is this impacted in any way by the discussion recently on (I think) >> debian-devel about things under /etc which are now symlinks to >> configuration files (some of them I think systemd-related) under >> /lib or /usr/lib, which latter will be overwritten on upgrade even >> if local modifications have been made? > > It's late, I'm tired, I cannot parse that. Perhaps if you replace "I > thing" with "I know" e.g. a reference, preferably to something > relevant to when Jessie becomes stable, I'll endeavour to answer > that question I apologize. I presumed that anyone who is as invested in the systemd-related discussions as you plainly are would be following the various mailing lists where this might have been mentioned, and thus would have already read this discussion just as recently as I have. The discussion occurred on debian-devel, in the thread entitled "init system policy". The suggestion for a possible way to mitigate the problem was made by Philip Hands, on November 22nd, in response to a post by me on the same date. I do not have links to specific messages, since I don't habitually work with or enjoy browsing through Web archives of mailing lists, and since I've never understood (or even understood how to make practical use of) the "message links" - looking outwardly similar to complicated E-mail addresses - which people sometimes use to identify a particular E-mail message. I presume that you will be able to find the thread in your own local archive of recent messages from debian-devel. > - until then it's (unintentionally?) a little too "Glenn Beck/Duane > Gish". I am insulted at being compared to Glenn Beck. (Though I don't know who Duane Gish is, unless she's the referent for the phrase "Gish Gallop" - and even then, I don't have more than a vague idea of what that is.) >> At a glance, it certainly looks to me as if "the Debian Way" of >> customizing things may now have changed at least somewhat > > What were you "glancing" at? (it would be helpful so I can respond > to your question - assuming you are asking a non-rhetorical > question). At the discussion to which I had been referring, and at the related parts of my own installed Debian system. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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