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Re: DW quotes

On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 09:57:14AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach Clytie Siddall <clytie@riverland.net.au> [2005.06.16.0521 +0200]:

> > "Somewhere I won't be asked for sex in the middle of a technical
> > discussion."

> If that happened, then your peer was just an asshole and even though
> it may or may not have been possible, you should have just moved on.
> I can perfectly well imagine women despising men that talk to them
> with the thought of sex in their heads, be that in Debian or in
> a bar. Nevertheless, it's a very natural thing to do.

It /is/ a very natural thing to do, which is part of the reason Erinn and
Amaya wanted to create this environment to help encourage women to get
involved in Debian (and open source projects in general). We /shouldn't/
have to put up with this as a rule and just *ignore* it or move on when it
happens *often*. And, it does. This should be an issue that can be tackled
and destroyed eventually, but this is exactly why Debian-Women exists - an
environment to encourage people to get involved where they *don't* have that
unneeded pressure and completely tasteless attitude.

> I can understand perfectly well that such behaviour may feel
> condescending or diminishing for the female peer, who is basically
> being reduced to her sex independent of conversation topic or
> environment. Nevertheless, rest assured: this isn't something us
> evil men are out to do. Our mission is not to reduce women to their
> body. Our mission is, well... whatever our mission is, a man's
> brain basically switches to low power consumption mode in the
> presence of a raised hormone level. True to the spirit of Immanuel
> Kant, we thus aren't inherently bad people because it's not our
> intention to let them hormones take over and make us act like
> animals.

It's rather brave of you to speak for all men in general, especially when I
have seen some very tasteless, crude and crass comments *myself* just for
being on IRC (not necessarily from guys within Debian, but I think part of
that is my last name warding them off). There are some men, indeed even in
Debian, who believe that women are just that - available for reproduction
purposes to "fulfill their debts and obligations to society".

And while you may not be inherently bad people because it's not your
intention to let "them" hormones take over and make you act like animals,
you are *still* responsible for your actions and what you say. Giving an
excuse like hormones just gives an excuse for the behavior. It does nothing
to fix it and force "you" to live civilly and platonically with women.

In short: If a man is ruled by his hormones and takes no responsibility for
his actions and reduces women to their most basic sexual and animalistic
levels, then quite frankly? I have a hard time believing he belongs in a
professional society in general. He is certainly someone with whom *I* don't
want to communicate and while I can place him /ignore and /dev/null his
messages to mailing lists, I can't expect every other woman to do the same.

> So Clytie, if you come across as sexy to your male peer, live or
> over IRC, you should really not blame them for losing control. :)

And this is where I grind my teeth, and the whole reason why I had to wait a
full day before responding to this message (I just couldn't resist
responding, afterall). If I come across as sexy to my male peer, I most
certainly *do* expect him to keep control and if he loses control, I most
certainly *do* blame him. I like to think that the human race, as a whole,
has evolved from caves, matted hair, picking lice, fleas and ticks off each
other and communicating with crude pictures and grunts. If I come across a
man who hasn't seemed to have evolved with the rest of us, I usually take it
on as my personal mission to send him back to those caves where he belongs.


Patty Langasek


At times, you may end up far away from you; you may not be 
sure of where you belong, anymore. But home is always 
there... because home is not a place. It's wherever your 
passion takes you.
                                --- J. Michael Straczynski

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