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Re: CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

> Am 2008-06-21 09:22:17, schrieb Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso:
>> I think this is rather nearsighted. Although for what I do,
>> mathematics, it's easier to argue for openness of the software (a
>> mathematical proof must be available and the method disclosed,
> Sorry, but I habv my own Enterprise, working alone, outsourceing already
> Jobs to India, Russia and Pakistan, have 4 childeren in a Internat which
> cost over 3000 ¤/month and I must live...
> I can not wait 5 or 10 years for software development.
> I need the software NOW and currenly I have only 1000 ¤ in my pocket.
> Maybe I can get a credit from my bank but...
>> otherwise, what kind of mathematics are we doing?), I also think it
>> should be important to argue for the opennes of engineering software.
>> If you buy it, I think you should also be demanding the source code.
> For what?
> What do you want with a sourcecode of the size of OpenOffice or bigger?
> Do you have already decompressed the full sources of OpenOffice.org?
> The question is WHY do you want the source code?
> I do not know much peoples WHICH can do anything with it except stealing
> ideas or such...
> VariCAD for example...  Tell me a singel BIG FOSS of  this  quality  and
> service? (including international standards like ISO, DIN or such)
> This IS the reason, WHY I have bought VariCAD for 20.000 ¤ (OK not realy
> because I have bought in for a special price on the CeBit) but where  is
> the FOSS which can create singel objects and then resamle it to a big
> thing?
> E.g.:  I build electonic Hardware for Solar- and Wind-Energie  and  then
>        I constuct a haus where I use it, and since I  am  working  on  a
>        project called "Eco City" I have not  only  one  haus  but  many.
>        Then I have my BioFuel-Refinery which was designed under  VariCAD
>        and is included in the design of EcoCity...  Streets are inductiv
>        and cars are driving electric and are charged inductiv...
> Now tell me where I can get such FOSS...
> Oh, VariCAD allow me Real-Time simmulations where I can let  drive  cars
> through the streets and more...
> HOW do you want to provide such service with FOSS?  And why do you  want
> the sourcecode for such softwre?  The Enterprise, coding and maintaining
> such software invest very much money and i am talking about several 100
> million Euros in development...
> Do you know a FOSS, which can simulate the behaviour of a haus, tower or
> a bridge in a Earth-Quake?  I have the software! - ...and payed for it.
>> Unfortunately, it seems that many people in engineering backgrounds,
>> with whom I frequently have to interact, are used to the idea of
>> paying thousands of dollars for black boxes, whether it be for
>> hardware and instrumentation or software. I think this is a recent
> They do not pay for nothing...  They pay for Service and Performance
>> This modern tendency to eschew source seems nearsighted because I have
>> seen this come back to haunt engineers. More than once, I've seen
>> their black boxes malfunction on them, the only people with the
>> ability to fix them have left the company or are out of business, and
> But such things do not happen to programs like VariCAD  or  professionel
> PCB layouting which cost several 10.000 ¤.
>> then they come to us with interesting mathematics of inverse problems
>> ("I have the output of this black box, how can we figure out what's
>> inside?"). I feel so frustrated with this, because if only they had
>> requested for source and documentation when they bought it, something
>> that apparently never even crossed their minds, then their newfound
>> problems would be trivial.
> And then?
> They have the Sourcecode change the name and sell it in  there  name?  I
> think, OSS or CSS, depends on the  "Type of Software"  and  the  Service
> behind.
>> This is my strongest argument for openness with engineering software,
>> from a personal perspective. Duplication of efforts, with many
>> companies implementing the same or similar software in their own
>> secret ways (NIH syndrome) is another silly thing that happens behind
>> copyright laws and non-disclosure agreements and something that
>> software freedom can reduce or eliminate.
> WHY do you think it is silly?  Developing such software  cost  money  in
> recherches and services...  Why do you want it for  free?  I  call  such
> peoples suckers...
>> I do not know much about PCB software or to what extent these
>> arguments apply to your own situation, but my guess is that they also
>> do and that having source and the freedoms that come with it would
>> also be hugely beneficial and a good long-term strategy.
> But again, WHAT DO YOU WANT with a sourcecode where the developers  have
> invested millions of ¤?
> Note:   I have ask MANY peoples about WHY THEY WANT THE SOURCE CODE and
>         there was not a singel one, which has respond suitable...
>         The argument "I want to improve the software" does  not  count,
>         since no one could tell me what to improve on VariCAD.
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
>     Michelle Konzack
>     Systemadministrator
>     24V Electronic Engineer
>     Tamay Dogan Network
>     Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack   Apt. 917                  ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947    50, rue de Soultz         MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193     67100 Strasbourg/France   IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

I have run several hardware/software shops and for me the only rational
arguement for source code is "what will I as a user do if the company goes
"belly up" or stops supporting the product.  The only pragmatic solution
that I was able to work out was an escrow arrangement whereby the
developer placed the most current version of source code and documentation
with a third party (e.g. a bank).  The developer owned that source code
and I was not allowed to access it unless the developer either stopped
doing business, stopped supporting the software, or failed to meet stated
obligations (e.g. failed to fix a major bug in some reasonable time).  I
have negotiated several of these agreements and not once have I had to
exercise the escrow agreement and gain access to the software; however,
the existance of such an agreement gave my company peace of mind.

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