* Philip Hands (phil@hands.com) wrote: > Stephen Frost wrote: > > * Simon Huggins (huggie@earth.li) wrote: > > > >>I realise that money can be very devisive but these are relatively small > >>amounts of money used well for the good of Debian. > > > > Even small amounts of money can change people's priorities. > > It seems that you are under the impression that the activities such as the > selling of T-shirts are done for the purpose of raising money. (Not > surprising given the spin that MJ Ray's been putting on it) It doesn't actually make any difference at all to me. The issue here is that you're operating commercially while trying to appear as part of Debian. In the end, Debian needs to decide if it will partake in commercial activities. From what I've heard so far the answer has been 'no', with concerns about losing donations of hardware and hosting and whatnot, esp. from universities. I don't know how real those concerns are, but I know I've heard them. Personally, I think it's something Debian should do, with perhaps eventually having Debian able to sustain itself. Certainly, I feel that Debian should remain non-profit but I don't believe that prevents it from selling things (perhaps I'm wrong). That's neither here nor there though. The issue at hand is if 'Debian' operating in other countries will allow itself to do things 'Debian' itself doesn't, and I certainly don't think it should. I certainly have no qualms with you setting up a company, society, organization, whatever, which sells t-shirts, buys a few beers, and contributes money to Debian. Don't call it Debian though, it's not. I would certainly appriciate an organization of appropriate kind in the UK to handle Debian/SPI funds. That organization should be accountable to the DPL and Debian, should provide periodic accounting reports, and should only recieve/spend money as appropriate for Debian. Currently, unfortunately, it sounds like that's not Debian-UK as currently implemented. [...] > So, we do trade T-Shirts, but the primary motivation is to provide Debian > fans with stuff they might like, not to make money out of it. My recollection is that Debian, at other expos and conventions where Debian has been present, has given out CDs and t-shirts for free. I'm not entirely sure where they've come from but I think they've been donated to Debian for that purpose. I don't recall seeing anything on the Debian/SPI expense reports about buying them though. I also recall some Debian 'PR' mailing list or discussion about it and gathering the appropriate materials and whatnot for a booth. I think that was in the US, but I'm not entirely sure. I also don't know the current status or what they do exactly these days. [...] > I agree that there is a danger of corruption that goes along with the > presence of money, but I don't appreciate the implication that such > corruption is inevitable. In fact the level of honesty demonstrated by > those involved over the years has been impeccable. There have been many > occasions where people who could certainly have done with the money have > had physical access to hundreds or thousands of pounds in cash, without > incident. I didn't mean to imply that there exists or would exist corruption. My concern is that Debian has thusfar, from all I've been able to tell, decided to be a non-commercial entity and that Debian in other countries should adhere to that as well. If you're not intending to be 'Debian' in the UK then a name change is in order. If you are, then you need to be non-commercial, or convince Debian to go commercial itself. > Rather than attempting to imply that there must always be an ulterior > motive, I think we (Debian as a whole) should congratulate ourselves that > we've managed to establish an environment in which such ethical behaviour > can be expected. I didn't mean to imply an ulterior motive. I appriciate your interest in attempting to have Debian be a commercial entity but I feel that you're going about it in quite the wrong way. Thanks, Stephen
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