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Re: Debian on Pine64 H64B?

On 2021.09.09 23:28, lkcl wrote:
Pete: thank you for pointing out that you've actively contributed, do keep emphasising that, it will help undo some of the damage.

Talk about implication loaded statement here.

So you are taking as fact that everybody is agreeing with your *opinion* that I am causing damage?

Let me be as bold as you then and state that there's probably an equal number of people who think that the greater damage was done when you decided that you couldn't let Vagrant's naturally concluding statement sit, and went on a personal attack against my person, by misreading Vagrant's take as a justification that this was somehow okay.

So you may want to contemplate that, instead of assuming that everyone is on the same page as yours.

i do get that you feel you're not making "demands": i have had people regularly misconstrue what i say for over 20 years.  thus, i am actually quite "entuned" now to the subtleties

I get it, you are somehow more "entuned" to pass judgement than somebody else on this list. And of course, in that portrait, I am the black sheep, because I dared express general disappointment at the actions of some people on this list, whom I truly expected to know better, so that we could, for once, avoid this whole charade where I or somebody else has to barge in to try to correct incomplete or incorrect statements, and then have to contend with the irritation of some of the people who tried to champion these statements... or worst, a never-ending lecture from people who misread what one has been trying to accomplish for the betterment of the list as some kind of attack on their fiefdom.

If you read my posts carefully, you find that the only slight request
that I have made is that Debian (i.e. people on this list whom I expect

to know better) should

the two key phrases which tell us the mis-step that you keep making are "whom i expect to know better" and "should".

So I am not entitled to expect people to know better, after people have been repeatedly posting on this list that there exist other methods of installing Debian, besides pre-built ISO, and yet we were still seeing pre-built being advertised as the only known way?

I do fully expect some people on this list to know better. Just like I also fully expected some people on this list to know better than go into a complete misconstruction about how placing the nonfree Pi firmware blobs on the same media as a Debian installation media could somehow be problematic.

And I also expected people other than me to intervene when they saw that incomplete statements, incorrect statements and other inaccuracies were being posted here (which some did).

But then again, seeing how doing so runs the risk of devolving into a personal attack, and how quick tempered some of the people appear to be here, I'm starting to understand why a few list members may think twice before trying to chime in.

it *really isn't* ok to make what can only be described as "implication-loaded statements" about individual contributors that are in effect Sovereign entities.

I am disappointed in some people in this mailing list. Am I not entitled to that? I fully expected that the people who would bother to post on this list would try to paint a more realistic picture of what was being discussed. And I certainly did not expect to have to still be here trying to explain how your biased personal attacks are unbecoming from what is supposed to be a technical mailing list.

"should" implies that you are directly criticising them for *not* doing something...

If you want to call that criticizing, then I am criticizing some people on list for not seemingly not remembering items that have been discussed here before, when it was relevant to bring them up, as well as people not intervening to point out said relevant items. I have been doing so, because, unfortunately, this is not the first time I'm seeing it happening. And as an "entuned" dialectician, I would certainly expect you to understand that not all criticism is negative, because, in my view, these statements are actually fairly neutral (i.e. you take them in your stride while trying to keep them in mind, and move on).

It's like picking up a bug you introduced in code. While expressing disappointment at finding it, you might tell yourself that you should have done better, as well as lay the expectation that you'll remember it enough so that you don't do the same mistake again. Or, if it's not the first time this kind of bug is being reported in a project, then somebody else might also state that they expected the project to do better and express the idea that developers of the project should know better than continuing to introduce these kind of bugs.

for which, like any Sovereign State, you have absolutely no right whatsoever to expect them to do,

So a teacher has no right to expect a student to do better? Or to try to remember things that are very relevant to their curriculum? Or to correct them when they state something that can be demonstrated as factually incorrect?

I'm kinda curious here: Have you ever tried to bring the "Students are their own Sovereign State" defence when you were at school? If so, how did it go?

When someone is trying to teach a group, that has been failing to address the above behaviours, can't they tell them that they are disappointed in them and that they should collectively do better?

"expect to know better" is again along the same lines: much as i hate to have to spell this out to you, it's terribly insulting.

Insult is not the intent, but if some people do feel it that way, then maybe it'll be helpful. Because I could really use not having to remind people on this list about the same thing over and over.

it comes with the loaded implication that "everything they did - unpaid, remember - before you came along, is shit. because *you* said so".

That escalated quickly. "I would expect better" equates to "everything you did before me is shit"?

Do you actually pause to consider what you are writing? Or are you simply just going with projection of how you believe people are supposed to behave, in order to fit the false narrative you have constructed about somebody's intent of expression?

now, that may actually be true, but if it is, and you hsve evidence to bsck it up, then as a newcomer you have to be *really* careful about how you go about presenting that.

I am not that much of a newcomer to this list. And that's part of the reason I feel entitled to be able to express global disappointment with the list as a whole as a non-outsider. Plus, if the idea is that newcomers should somehow expect to be offered less respect even when formulating true statements, I have to worry about the kind of technical list this is supposed to be.

Shouldn't what we care about here be facts first and foremost?

what may surprise you is that it *actually doesn't matter* whether what you suggest as an alternative to the "shit" is good or not: it's the very fact that you *expected* them to do it [without offering any financial compensation or other reward or incentive, which would result in a contractual or moral obligation where both parties satisfactorily get what they want]

At this stage, I'm gonna pass on this as well as the rest of your nonsensical advice and assessment of what the core of the issue is.

Treat that as lack of empathy if you wish, but, whether you understand it or not, and as one of its member of it, I have been trying to make this list better.

And even if I perceive that you genuinely believe that you are trying to accomplish the same, by "teaching" me some etiquette (while of course not passing a chance to use as much as this pointless exchange to try to boost your public mentor image somehow), I do hope that you will come to realize, on your own, that public prolonged personal attacks on a technical mailing list isn't the right way to go about it, even if you truly believe that you have the high ground and that everybody else on the list is somehow agreeing with you.



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