Aw: Re: Fortunes-off - do we need this as a package for Bookworm?
> Gesendet: Montag, 21. November 2022 um 03:10 Uhr
> Von: "Roberto A. Foglietta" <roberto.foglietta@gmail.com>
> An: "Steve McIntyre" <steve@einval.com>
> Cc: "Michael Neuffer" <neuffer@neuffer.com>, debian-project@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Fortunes-off - do we need this as a package for Bookworm?
>
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 at 00:59, Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:07:53AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
> > >Am 20. November 2022 23:04:05 MEZ schrieb Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org>:
> > >>On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:45:15PM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
> > >>> On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
> > >>> > On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson
> > >>> > <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > > Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
> > >>> > > the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
> > >>> > > material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
> > >>> > > in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
> > >>> > > that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
> > >>> > <3
> > >>>
> > >>> I can only very much agree to this.
> > >>
> > >>I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even
> > >>started :(
> > >>
> > >>https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
> > >>
> > >
> > >As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
> > >Don't let cancel culture win.
> >
> > Are you volunteering to pick up the package and review its contents,
> > removing the worst stuff that is clearly *not* fit for us to publish?
> > In its previous state it included:
> >
> > * content that is downright illegal in many jurisdictions
>
> Obviously illegal material should not be distributed. How many of
> these quotes do you find that violate the law in some countries?
> Please, keep in mind that in Germany the nazi propaganda is out-of-law
> but in some other countires out-of-law is the use of the name of the
> profet (whoever he is). So, law compliance might not be as easy as you
> pretend to be unless OUR ONLY culture is considered (which by the
> way?).
Not a lawyer, and I did not have a look into that package, but in Germany, in part also because of our censoring-and-we-punish-your-family-if-we-cannot-get-you-for-it past, it is unlikely that you are censored as long as this is satire - and fortune-off from the descriptions given I consider to qualify. Also, just wait until we are sued, then we know.
The main concern I understood to be that our community would see some damage by such an exceptional package being redistributed. But I do not see that.
> > * content that is impossible to justify against Debian's stated values
>
> Nice, so we are going to burn "Mein Kampf" in such a way nobody will
> be able to read it?
That is is bit off. The question would be if Debian would decide to redistribute it. I have my full trust in our FTPadmins that this would not happen, though. That package would be a bit sick, also a fortunes-meinkampf that comes up with random quotes from it. There are many differences between redistributing that with redistributing anything like fortunes-off, the most important one to me is "intent".
> Every library should do that, conforming to their
> values. Burning books, uhm where we saw these before? So, the great
> difference here is to explicitly tell the reader that the content can
> be offensive in some culture or under some PoV.
But if there was something like fortunes-rickygervais - oder fortunes-jordanpeterson - not? Even though those two are triggering many feelings.
> This is exactly what the -o option does
>
> -o Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.
>
> Please, elaborate your opposition because it is quite generic,
> everything above considered.
I would leave that fortunes-off package in. And I just hope for some self-censoring that keeps the trolls in us in check so we can delay discussing what we are discussing here.
Steffen
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