Re: This is getting ridiculous ...
Disclaimer: This kind of social mess can only be solved in full transparency
and disclosure, thus public reply on the list. If you feel you will be
offended, please disregard this email instead.
On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 02:17:17AM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 18, 2006 at 02:06:41AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 07:26:52PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 12:12:59PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Jun 17, 2006 at 12:53:52AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > > > No, Frans and Joey are not the only members of the d-i team that have a hard
> > > > > time working with you.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, so you are the unnamed third one. Anyway, i guess you also don't
> > > > have any kind of exemplar communication style, just see at how you
> > > > managed the whole Vancouver mess,
> > >
> > > Ahh, the "whole Vancouver mess". Which, like, ended almost a year ago.
> > > We're going that way now, are we? Digging way back in history just to
> > > find /some/ bit of mud to sling?
> >
> > First, i was not the first one to mention this in this thread. Second, all
> > this problem started back then, and as you may remember or not,
>
> If you would look a bit further than your navel, you may remember that I
> myself was originally very unhappy about the Vancouver proposal.
Indeed. But the problem here is not the proposal itself, but the way
communication was handled back then, and which this is mostly a continuation
of. Do you see why i am so exasperated and desesperate ? And if you count all
those persons who have something against me today, it is the exact same ones
where there back then, and who have not ceased to work against me since then.
> > the result was that i was very seriously insulted and almost quited
> > all debian work back then because of that,
>
> You don't really think you were alone there, do you?
No, i don't believe i was. Altough i don't remember anyone else being t[h?]reated
like i think it was Joerg or Ganneff t[h?]reated me.
> > and because of other things like joeyh, Kamion and vorlon all falling
> > on me with no concertation in 6 hours interval about some really minor
> > mistake i made after spending a whole week of full time work to get
> > the powerpc 2.4 kernels ready for sarge.
> >
> > Since then, all innocent joy i had in working on debian for almost 7
> > years died, and i never was able to think about debian without some
> > serious biterness,
>
> Really, you should get over yourself.
I tried this, and every 3-4 month there is another such episode, and i get
hurt again, and always the same handful of DD which happen to be the ones with
power are on the hurting side.
> What the Vancouver proposal tried to do was to improve Debian, since
> having 11 architectures and getting them all up to quality takes a lot
> of work, mostly by the release managers. It's only fair that they wanted
> to change that.
Indeed, but the way they communicated about it back then sucked big-time, and
Steve giving me lections in communications is just ridiculous, and was what
triggered my post above.
There are a certain number of people in debian who have a real power, like the
ftp-masters, or the RMs, or the d-i team leaders. And those people have come
to believe that this power in some way makes them superior DDs to others, and
communicate with others with a serious degree of superiority and haugtiness,
which is difficult to stomach. And since our current DPL is also an
ftp-master, and a person i have disagreed with in the past and dared try to
discuss technical issues, and got some kind of "this is the way it is, you
better accept it" reply, i am very very bitter about this whole issue. This
exact same kind of attitude can be clearly seen in the DPLs sentence on this
issue, and is emulated by Frans.
> I'll agree with you that their initial proposal wasn't ideal. You should
> remember that I was fairly instrumental in helping to formulate an
> updated proposal. If you don't, you *really* should start looking away
> from your own navel.
Again, i am not arguing the proposal here, but the communication issues that
where involved. I am very ready to say that what you claim above clearly
demostrate that your communication skills are way better than Steve's.
> > and each time i tried supering that, i found Frans on my path, being
> > condescending and borderline insulting, believing he knez more about
> > kernel packaging than me, and denying any kind of knowledge and
> > competence.
>
> Right.
>
> > Never have any of those involved back then showed the less regret
> > about their actions, or at least never told me so. They all felt they
> > where justified, and indeed so justified that some of them repeated
> > the same offense every couple of months since then.
>
> I fail to see how trying to improve Debian somehow equates to "insulting
> Sven Luther". But, yeah, sure, the world is out to get you.
I am sorry, but i don't see any kind of improving debian in the issues i am
refering too. In those case, like the kernel .udeb modules, or a better more
automated handling of those and new kernel CONFIG options, it was *I* who was
trying to improve debian, and *THEY* who flamed and bashed me because of it,
and Frans was the forerunner about those.
> > So, this is really an issue which started with the Vancouver mess,
> > altough it was a colateral dammage.
> >
> > Now, you cannot say that Steve's presentation of the vancouver
> > discussion, which was done in secret, without any kind of consultation
> > to those involved, and all you know, so you cannot say that Steve was
> > a masterful communicator back then, and frankly complaining about my
> > communication problems is not something that Steve should do.
>
> You'll never hear *me* saying that the Vancouver proposal is one of the
> brighter points in Debian history. Hell no. But digging it up long after
> it's been resolved, just so you can sling some mud at random people,
> that's just childish.
the vancouver proposal was resolved, the social mess i am currently involved
today is a direct decendant of what happened back then though.
> > > Wonderful. Feels like primary school all over again.
> >
> > Indeed, like bullies targeting a solitair child, and making him their
> > scapegoats for over a year.
>
> rotfl.
Why ? It fits perfectly, you have the band of bullies, who are 'in' and hold
some amount of power inside debian, constantly and regularly bashing on a
single isolated guy who doesn't have such. And it all started at around the
vancouver proposal by steve, so over a year ago.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
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