Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie
On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
>> On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> >>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > > > as the default init more distros will follow suit,
>>
>> Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of
>> those that don't.
>
> As as option at install time or during an upgrade? Don't know of any.
That do not include systemd as a package.
>
> As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use
> systemd. I don't even think it's in the repo. I don't know if systemd
> will even work with Slackware.
Um, I've heard that said before - but I like to check my facts
(especially when issues are emotive, *and* when outside parties may
have an interest in creating dissension and disorder), so I've read
Patrick's opinions[*1]. He's never said that (though I'd welcome an
authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who
manages a huge workload almost single-handedly.
He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that
he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that "one day" he may
move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to "absolutely refuses to use
systemd".
[*1]:-
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/
>
>> >> > and more and more
>> >> > developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of it,
>> >> > as a dependency for the "features" it offers.
>>
>> It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write
>> alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those
>> that produce have their "freedom of choice" constrained by "users".
>> I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely to
>> do anything other than destroy, given that the "user" has a choice.
>
> User's do constrain.
Within some limits (e.g. if the developer cares primarily about the
"users" i.e. if the main motivation is not to "scratch an itch"). And
that few "users" can agree on what they want except on a few minor
points, it is an impossibility to extrapolate "constrain" to "define
individually defined outcomes". When "users" "dictate" often times
the "constraint" results only in the destruction of that which the
dictators hoped to shape.
> They even dictate.
Some times. The most vocal minority "demand" - I see little evidence
that does anything but the opposite of what they expect.
Sadly many believe that criticism is a "right", and also something for
which they are "owed". Like similar behavior in restaurants it's
ultimately unhealthy for the consumer unless done carefully, politely,
and with the full understanding of possible reactions from the
producers.
> Always have. Developers
> should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need.
> Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of business.
> Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is just
> good business.
Sound practice in commercial enterprise - not in FOSS. And even in
commerce the business that's wise recognises it can't please everyone
so it allocates resources in the most profitable manner - which means
it never satisfies all possible customers.
>
>> >>
>> >> Every other distro of merit has long since made the switch. We're
>> >> just late to the party. Are you just figuring it out now? Ric
>> >
>> > Depends on what you mean by "distros of merit."
>> >
>> > Last time I checked -- two or three weeks ago -- only 6 distros
>> > besides Jessie were using systemd as the default:
>>
>> Depends on what 'you' call "*default*". It implies a choice - as
>> opposed to "*mandatory*".
>
> You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the
> system is running.
It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a reboot is
"Mandatory" to me would imply you cannot change it
> at all. Ever. The system wouldn't work if you did. But we know that is not
> the case.
>
>> More importantly it depends on whether using "default" as a measure of
>> support for your "argument"(?) is relevant.
>>
>> > Fedora 15,
>> > RHEL 7, CentOS 7, Arch, OpenSUSE, and SUSE Server. Just read today
>> > OpenMandriva uses it. Probably Mandriva, too. Haven't checked. So,
>> > 9 total including Jessie. In any case, not a long list.
>>
>> Assuming your best intentions - that you meant "supported", it's a
>> *much* longer list. A shorter list is those distributions that *do
>> not* include systemd.
>
> I meant those distros that install systemd as the init at install
> time.
Which is "default" and "mandatory".
I don't now the answer (either way) - though I'd be interested in
knowing (CoreOS?).
>
>> > I've also just read of a systemd-less fork of Jessie/Debian.
>> > Debuan, I think it's called.
>>
>> A novel "fork" in that it appears to focus more on raising money than
>> producing code, and that it's "developers" are anonymous. An
>> interesting concept for a FOSS project.
>> Aside from those peculiarities (and the hype associated with it)
>> perhaps it will turn out to be a more recent version of xwin?
>> (apologies to Keith Packard if the comparison is unjustified).
>
> Except for a quick skim of Debuan's homepage, I know little of it. Only
> that development hasn't even begun. Best to check back in a year to see
> how it's going.
>
>> <snipped>
>>
>> I tend to agree with Theodore Ts'o[*1] in that systemd is a worthy
>> project designed to fix the failings and overcome the limitations of
>> sysinitv, and that it 'might' be moving too fast. In that light I
>> applaud the Debian decision to make it the *default*[*2] in Jessie so
>> that it's failings can be exposed to a wider audience for the purposes
>> of assessment and improvement.
>
> Well, we already know what a lot of Debian server admins think of
> systemd.
What we do not know is relative numbers. i.e. a lot of people *do*
believe that aliens from outerspace visit and perform abductions, but
a *lot* more people, don't.
I do know that a lot of large and very large server farms do use
systemd[*2]. Most of the sysadmins I hear from (myself included) that
do not use systemd run less than a few hundred servers. What I don't
know is over-all figures (and how that will affect decisions made by
developers).
So - I do not know useful numbers. And I'd hesitate to value their
worth given the number of different use cases (the unmatched strength
of Linux is it's degree of customisation possible for specific use
cases).
[*2] e.g.:-
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/11/msg01199.html
> I'll be interested to see what the release after Jessie is
> like. Until then, I good with Wheezy.
I'm interested too, and in Jessie - but at this point I/we've only
just moved to Wheezy, and it'll be a while before we move servers to
it - probably not until LTS looks like expiring (unless userland
dictates otherwise).
>
> B
>
>
Kind regards
--
"The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with somebody
else's life" ~ Frank Zappa
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