Re: Let's have a vote!
Scott Ferguson <scott.ferguson.debian.user@gmail.com> writes:
> On 28/09/14 04:49, lee wrote:
>> Scott Ferguson <scott.ferguson.debian.user@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 26/09/14 07:34, lee wrote:
>>>> Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 03:04:24PM +0200, lee wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Systemd can handle the boot process from head to toe,
>>>>>>> without needing to use any of the existing shell scripts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's how systemd makes the boot process cryptic and
>>>>>> non-debuggable.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can understand start-stop-daemon, I'm sure systemd isn't
>>>>> much harder.
>>>>
>>>> I never needed to understand it.
>>>
>>> Noted. (and adequately demonstrated that you don't understand it -
>>> it "just works for you" - like systemd does).
>>
>> It works only as long as it does.
>
> Insightful.
You're missing the interesting question: What when it doesn't work?
>> I've seen how difficult it is to do a very simple thing with
>> systemd,
>
> Do you have a constructive example - or is the wingeRUS list? I'm
> presuming you wish to improve the situation?
As I already said: try to get squid 2.7 started and stopped by systemd
on a current Fedora installation.
>
>> how poor the documentation is
>
> Obviously that is something that needs improving then. You could help by
> stating the areas you find lacking - perhaps even tell us a bit about
> where you looked?
I looked at the man page.
Better do it the other way round: You look at the exim specification and
bring the developers of systemd to work on their documentation until it
has at least the quality of the exim specification. Then you might
understand why I can't be bothered to look at the systemd documentation
to point out its flaws.
>> and how confused the developers are.
>
> Are they? Which developers? This a lot of information to take on board!
My impression is that they are confused and don't really know what
they're doing.
>> When systemd fails, chance to fix it are as good as non-existent.
>
> Ipso facto??
How would you fix it? It doesn't even have all its configuration files
under /etc but a mess of them distributed all over the file systems
somewhere. You can't even read the log files. Nowadays, you can't even
see what messages are printed on the console during booting. Good luck
with fixing it.
>>>>> Users DO get a vote. Every time you download an ISO for debian,
>>>>> that's a vote. Every time you install a system as debian,
>>>>> that's a vote.
>>>>
>>>> It would be a vote nobody knows or cares about.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a personal choice. If you require a crowd of support as moral
>>> justification you're doing it wrong.
>>
>> Just ask yourself: Why would someone choose to download an ISO for
>> Debian?
>
> I'm not sure how that is an answer to the question I asked. Would you be
> so kind as to answer my question please?
Which question are you referring to?
> The answer to your random question is - because they wish install
> Debian. Please start a new thread for new questions.
That might be one of the reasons. And why would they want to install
Debian?
>>>>> As has been mentioned several times on this list, the best way
>>>>> to get systemd out of debian is to develop an init system that
>>>>> is technically superior to systemd. [...]
>>>>
>>>> There seems to be quite some disagreement about systemds'
>>>> technical superiority.
>>>>
>>>>> When your new init system is ready for show time, either submit
>>>>> it to debian (if you'd like debian to lead the way) or create
>>>>> your own distribution to showcase the init system. Let people
>>>>> see the ease with which your new system tackles the problems of
>>>>> both sysvinit and systemd. Let them play with it and marvel at
>>>>> the clean, robust code.
>>>>>
>>>>> We look forward to the fruits of your efforts!
>>>>
>>>> That'll be a long wait. Even if I made another init system, it
>>>> would be ignored like everything else.
>>>
>>> Circular logic much? And it justifies what? Others doing the work
>>> for you - on the basis that you've previously *alleged* your "work"
>>> was unfairly rejected in the past. If 'it' is Open Source, not
>>> some hypocritical SLitt license, then provide a link and let the
>>> code speak for itself.
>>
>> It gives me reason not to waste my time with making software for
>> others.
>
> Your call, obviously.
Sure is, yet why tell me to make software nobody cares about. That
won't get systemd out of Debian.
--
Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power.
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