Re: Building computer
On 9/26/2013 12:34 PM, Doug wrote:
> On 09/26/2013 01:05 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote:
>> On 9/25/2013 12:52 PM, Catherine Gramze wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2013, at 12:52 AM, Stan Hoeppner <stan@hardwarefreak.com> wrote:
>>>
>
> /very large snip/
>
> I just left this final section to illustrate the tome of the whole thing:
>>
>> The socket vs upgrade concern is not valid. It will be at least 10
>> years before desktop applications, especially Linux apps, are
>> sufficiently threaded to take advantage of today's 4 core CPUs, let
>> alone 6/8 cores. New hardware doesn't make old hardware obsolete. New
>> software does. There are many people, including myself, who would say
>> this applies even to dual core CPUs. And in fact, at the rate of
>> desktop software development today, WRT threads, one is better off
>> purchasing a higher clocked dual core CPU with lots of cache than a quad
>> core model at a lower clock, especially given power consumption.
>>
>> Worrying about which future CPU will fit in your mobo socket is a waste
>> of brain cycles. It's irrelevant. By the time you *need* to upgrade,
>> you'll want newer faster DRAM, etc. So you'll end up replacing the
>> board, CPU, and memory, as people have been doing for some years
>> already. Oh, add to that the fact that AMD and Intel keep changing
>> sockets to accelerate this trend. The entire industry is better off
>> when people keep buying new hardware, obviously, even if the consumers
>> aren't.
>>
>
> Stan, I think the advice you've given Catherine will be useful to a lot
> of folks who read this list. Particularly in regard to ram usage and
> power supply size.
DRAM has trended very cheap for a while, though it's starting to go back
up a little. Due to price many people have been buying more than they
need, simply because they can, at least here in The States. And because
it's been so cheap big box vendors have been using DRAM capacity as a
selling point. So when people see most if not all retails desktop PCs
shipping with 6GB or more RAM, they are conditioned to believe that's
the "new minimum" that everyone should have. This is of course folly.
The multi-core issue is of greater importance as CPUs typically cost
much more than a couple of DIMMs. The overwhelming majority of people
will never make use of 4 cores, let alone all the cycles of two cores.
Ever time I see someone say they're going to buy a quad core CPU I
cringe, and usually just bite my tongue. Many people simply don't want
to know the truth. Buying 4 instead of 2 makes them "feel" better about
the purchase, and that's what counts, I guess...
> I have heard, however, that the _make_ of power supply may be important,
> as some cheapies may not hold up. You might comment on that, and if
> that's correct, possibly recommend a name or two.
So much I can say WRT PSU purchasing. I'll try to be brief (and fail),
but complete.
When it comes to desktop PC power supplies brand has little to do with
reliability/longevity, but it definitely has influence on price, and
sometimes, but not always, a better warranty experience if you have to
return one. The design of DC-DC switching power supplies hasn't changed
much in 30+ years. It's a known science. The only thing that changes
regularly is the cost, and sometimes quality, of components, due to the
drive to reduce production cost and increase margins. And this is where
you run into problems. These may include using low quality ICs, caps,
assembly processes, etc, and/or may include skimping on testing during
Q.C. A bad batch of components can bite any vendor in the butt.
Sometimes good QC can catch this, sometimes it can't.
My advice? Ignore brand. Go to your favorite retail/wholesale website.
Plug in the power rating and price range you're interested in. Read
the reviews of the units. Yes, read them. Don't rely strictly on the
number of stars, eggs, etc. One bad review by a novice builder who
burns up his system, or one who gives 1/5 because the cables are too
short for his case, or just doesn't know what he's doing, can ruin a
rating, and cause you to skip over a perfectly good supply. Here's an
example:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103514
The guy who gave 1 egg didn't buy the unit from Newegg but from an Expo.
His PSU may not even be the SPI unit he's writing the review for. He
can't figure out how to plug in the Molex connector, which is a standard
all mobos and PSUs adhere to. He's an idiot. So you discard this
review and his 1/5 rating. That makes this unit a 5/5 instead of a 3/5.
Not the best example as there are only 2 reviews, and you should never
rely on a single positive review. But you get the idea what to look out
for in this regard.
Following, however, is the review that makes you walk away from a
particular unit:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817103089
SPI is one of the top 5 quality PSU manufacturers and has been for over
15 years. They contract manufacture for some of the big box PC names as
well as sell under their own. Their current top model of the latter
category is available at Newegg for $210 (yikes, for a desktop PSU?!).
It failed on two experienced builders, both verified purchasers, who
posted the only two reviews, giving it a true 1/5 rating. Both failed
at 3 months during normal operation. This tells us a common component
failed in both units. SPI obviously received a batch of marginal
components from a supplier and the deficiency wasn't detected during QC.
The design is not faulty, nor the QC.
Their other units all rate a true 4-5/5. They likely simply received a
bad batch of components used in this model. Note what I said up above
about even top manufacturers getting burned by faulty components.
This is exactly why you should not rely on a brand name alone when
making a PSU purchase, or any purchase really. No one "in the know"
expects a $200 SPI unit to fail, ever, or any $200 PSU for that matter.
In this price range quality/longevity *should* be an absolute.
Read the reviews. Ignore brand.
The last standalone PSU I purchased was this $20 480W (peak) generic
unit branded as "Sunbeam":
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817709010
I rebuilt my workstation after a mobo failure and replaced the PSU for
good measure. This Sunbeam was cheap. The ~100 reviews I read of the
200+ were mostly positive, and the failures reported coincided with
standard failure rates.
It has been running flawlessly for 2 years 1 month. The old PSU had
about 8 years on it. It was a 350W generic unit branded "Qmax", made in
China. Still works. It came in the mid tower case I purchased in 2003.
$35 for case with PSU, so it was a very cheap PSU. However, so people
don't get the idea that any arbitrary cheap PSU will run for 8+ years,
the following needs to be noted.
I buy the cheapest desktop PSUs I can find that have decent reviews.
However, before installation I open 'em up and remove the junk stock
80mm low RPM "quiet" sleeve bearing fan and install a faster spinning
yet still pretty quiet NMB ball bearing unit. I bought some in bulk on
a closeout sale a decade ago. NMB is one of the top 4 quality DC axial
fan manufacturers, along with Sanyo Denki, Nidec, and Delta. I've
probably mentioned this on list before.
Replacing the crappy stock fan with a quality long life model
contributed the the 8+ year life of the last cheap PSU. These NMBs last
forever. Instead of grabbing a new one from my stock I removed the unit
from the old PSU, cleaned it with a toothbrush and compressed air (from
my shop compressor, not the canned junk), and dropped it in. Before
it's done this NMB may end up with 15 or more years on it. It already
has 10, only 5 to go. I have other NMBs and Nidecs with over 10 years
on them. Keep em clean and they're like the Energizer bunny.
> An excellent presentation. I have put it in my "saved" file.
Thanks. Maybe this one will be as informative.
--
Stan
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