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Re: Enough time wasted, moving on

>>"Harry" == Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com> writes:

 Harry> Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@debian.org> writes:
 >> > All I hear from Woody is `can't won't or doesn't'  And this on a
 >> > machine that has had 2 flavors of linux, 2 of the BSDs and Solaris
 >> > (intel) install successfully.  Hardware recognized etc.
 >> I do have a hard time being patient with people maligning the
 >> distribution, saying things about people being asleep at the switch,
 >> while the problem was not with the project. 

 Harry> The high traffic here is mostly about how well everything
 Harry> works.

	Yes, cause most people use released software, or understand
 that pre-release development is done on other lists (debian-boot and
 debian-cd are where you see deficiencies in the current install
 process discussed and addressed)

 Harry>  Its not really dozens, even hundreds of `project
 Harry> problems' being discussed here daily.  No one is finding any
 Harry> difficulties with the install routines. And if they do, its
 Harry> probably their own doing, and not a `project problem'.

	Well, until we release the install mechanism, while we
 acknowledge that it is alpha software, and there are multiple fixes
 to CVS daily, I do not think it is yet a project problem if people
 try to use it.  Were we to release woody right now, yes, it may well
 be a problem. 

 Harry> Right about here is where the water starts running uphill.

	I am afraid you have lost me here.  

 Harry> You can keep right on with the `hard guy' routine, but I think its
 Harry> only fair to warn you that my whole body is a weapon.  Hands
 Harry> registered on 3 continents.  The last guy that called me a juvenile
 Harry> banterer is pushing up daisies on a vacant lot in Chicago.  :-)

	I see. You are not only juvenile, you are a moron. Only a
 moron brings in juvenile machismo on a mailing list, based on some
 kinda of idiotic ``my body is a weapon'' bullshit. 

	Perhaps I should be apologizing to morons for comparing them
 to you.

	I should also apologize to you too. I had no intention of engaging
 in a battle of wits with a hapless unarmed person.

 Harry> And you think `asleep at the switch' is too harsh....

	Unjustified. A mischaracterization. 

 Harry> I'm sure you will find none of that amusing

	On the contrary: I rarely have such delectable idiocy to
 brighten my day.

 Harry> : But: I've tried to detail some of the problems I had.  The
 Harry> one with the nic was probably the most serious since it rules
 Harry> out any further install, or at least with apt-get.

	Hmm. One certainly needs to be able to load the correct NIC
 (lspci, and so on, could help). I did note someone said they would
 bring this to the attention of the debian-boot folks.

 Harry> But I think it would be fair to say, if I have lots of trouble with
 Harry> an install, after installing one or another linux, bsd etc dozens of
 Harry> times on at least 20 machine in the last 3 or so years. That there are
 Harry> some actual problems there.  

	Of course there are.  It is *PRE_RELEASE ALPHA SOFTWARE*. And
 we'll certainly try to get them fixed before we do release them.
 Thanks for the feedback.

 Harry> I don't exaclty follow the reasoning I've seen presented as to
 Harry> why there isn't a more developed probing mechanism in place.
 Harry> Apparently it is felt that isn't something to spend time on.
 Harry> That may be true.  But, hardware finagling is really a pain in
 Harry> the butt.  My feeling is, the more you put on the machine to
 Harry> do, the better it will be.

	Quite so. However, until someone puts in some work integrating
 it into the install mechanism, we'll have to muddle along with a less
 than optimal install process. I do believe there is some effort being
 put in that direction.

 Harry> The thing about a crappy install routine is that once you succeed at
 Harry> it, you quit worring about it, so it never again seems so important.
 Harry> I'm having trouble now, remembering what was so hard.

	I am sue the people toiling on the boot-floppies and the
 install cd's find usability issues quite important.

 Now is the time for drinking; now the time to beat the earth with
 unfettered foot. Quintus Horatius Flaccus (Horace)
Manoj Srivastava   <srivasta@debian.org>  <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05  CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C

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