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Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:07:31PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> Sven Luther wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 07:21:08PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 09:36:47AM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> > > > > Sven,
> > > > > 
> > > > > You may or may not have been mistreated but the volume of your
> > > > > arguments is disproportionate.  There are millions of people
> > > > > who are being treated far worse and on an ongoing basis and I'd
> > > > > like to use what few spare cycles my brain has to worry about
> > > > > them rather than skipping over arguments about Sven.
> > > > 
> > > > Possibly, but for two points :
> > > > 
> > > >   - i am not forcing you to read this thread, just as i am not forced to
> > > >     read each of the random flamewar which debian has had without me
> > > >     being involved.
> > > 
> > > You are not forced to work on Debian and pollute its mailing lists
> > > either, yet still you seem to be doing exactly that.  Why?
> > 
> > Why can't i post on debian mailing lists, if it costs nothing but email
> > archive space and some bandwidth, which is cheap nowaday ? Just because
> Technically you can.  Maybe that's the problem.  I assume that it's
> being worked on.

Yeah, right, so we should move this to another media. I asked that an in
RL meeting be hold, so we could solve this. I asked this since november
or so, but no response to it since then.

> You should not because you annoy people and demonstrate all the time
> that you're unable to accept other people's opinion if they don't

Hey, i accept other people's opinion. Especially if it is argumented.
Sure i have problem with people saying me shut up, and giving no
argumentation, and i have a tendency of repeating myself when faced with
people who accuse me of some thing, while ignoring that i have been
claiming the contrary for months.

> exactly match your own.  That's doing yourself a big disfavour.  You
> don't believe this, I know.  It's hopeless.

I could say the same of you, you know, so where does this leave us ? 

That is the disease of debian, in that it is composed of too many
over-proud people unable to make compromises. Don't you want to fix
debian so it can deal fairly even under those conditions ? And i am
probably more flexible and reasonable than all those of the other side
of this mess.

Care to give me a chance ?

> > you don't like what i have to say i should i have less right to the use
> > of the mailing lists than you or others do ? 
> Thanks for putting differnt words in my mouth.  If you are unable to
> contribute anything useful couldn't you just STFU like everybody else?

Like you are just doing ? Well, this is honest discussion about a topic
which is bleeding raw in debian. It is a legitimate topic to speak
about, it is sad that this mess is the only way it can be expressed, but
what other solution is there ? 

> > Or do you deny that this is a ways more important topic than the choice
> > of code names, or seeing the d-i folk fight over usplash, or any other
> > random thread on our lists ? 
> You are writing bullshit.  Everybody else notices this.  Except you.

I am ? can you please argument and show what this bullshit is, instead
of ignoring the arguments which don't favour you and spreading FUD ? 

> > Why should i have less right to post on the lists than others do ? 
> The time will come when you will have less rights to post to the
> Debian lists.  Just continue.

Right, i am trying to argument and discuss, and you are threatening me.
What happened to trying to argument instead ? 

> > Please tell me when i have been spreading FUD. I have always told the
> You are repeating that the request for suspension has anything to do
> with your DPL candidacy, yet there's no such proof.  This is FUD.

No it is not :

  - the expulsion request was notified to me on the saturday of FOSDEM,
    (even though it got lost), the procedure asked for 2 weeks to
    requests supporters, this brings us to exactly 1 day after i offered
    my DPL candidacy.

  - Anthony Towns expressed his surprise at the request of january 7 or
    so not being dropped, and said he didn't understand what was going

  - The DAMs removed all dates from the supporters mail, and included
    various which where a year old, dating from Andres expulsion request
    of last year, which he rescinded. They did not respond to repeated
    requests to provide those mails.

  - The expulsion supporters show various mails showing evidence of
    Frans Pop actively campaigning to meet the deadline.

  - Various people expressed the opinion that i candidated as DPL just
    to gain another forum to speak about this mess, while this was not
    my intention, and at that time i had largely forgotten the d-i
    disaster, even greeting Frans friendly-y at FOSDEM, tried to hold a
    discussion about the technical possibilities offered by the kernel
    for the future of d-i, and even helped frans during his
    presentation when he was having X troubles. 

  - I candidated as DPL, with the main idea to make Debian a place again
    where the will to do things is what counts, and to remove the
    frustration caused blockers that you see all around you, repeteadly,
    and most of them not even remotely involving me. I didn't think that
    i would win, didn't even wish to win as i would have been a bad DPL
    because of this mess, but an honourable score around these themes
    would have made those responsibles of those blockages think, and
    helped a resolution of them in the future. Some people may have felt
    threatened by this.

  - There where wild accusations, which didn't come from me, and i had
    real trouble believing in, which made this a manipulation by Joerg
    Jaspert and the anti-Anthony Towns folk, to hurt his DPL candidacy.
    This can be qualified as FUD, but i have not voiced it until today.
    Still, that people even think about something like that is
    troublesome in itself.

Well, this may not be asbolut truth, but are strong hints, and the fact
that the DAMs have repeatedly refused to comment on these issues, and
give access to the real data, is more than disturbing. I am not the only
one sharing these doubts, though. And dismissing this position as FUD,
without giving an argumentation, well, this doesn't seem like a strong
position on your part, and so the more reason to silence me by force.

And now, know something. I never knowingly lied or deformed the truth in
this, and if i have been mistaken, i have always honestly recognized my
fault when pointed out in an argumented way. Telling otherwise is
diffamation and caloumny of the worse kind, and a worse act that
anything i could have done here.

Now, if you could respond in an argumented way, and with evidence, we
could go somewhere.

> > truth to the best of my knowledge, which has not been the case of
> Maybe your knowledge is not the best because it's based on the
> assumption that you know what others think?  Yet you fail to realise
> that others are annoyed and offended by you and your actions.

No, it is based on assumption i guess on the evidence, and which, when i
ask others about it, they fail to respond in an argumented way, or to
respond at all.

And sure, i believe my position disturbs many, and that this thread
disturbs the tranquility of everyone, but it is far not the ultimate
evil everyone is making of it. 

> > everyone here. As for dead horses, i am not dead yet.
> You're not beating yourself.  Not sure if you should...


> > > true, but a pretty pointless one.  As said numerous times, you would do
> > > yourself and others a favour stopping that.
> > 
> > It is not my fault it is a pointless one. Why can't we take this
> Yes it is your fault.

Ok, let's argument. Why is it my fault. Do you see something i could
have done to make this not pointless ? Do you even have a clue of what i
am asking or are you still working on assumptions about what was said
about me more than 6 month ago like when you speak about the d-i commit

> > oportunity to finally handle this issue like it should have been from
> > the start, and give debian a tool to really handle such social problems
> > so it won't happen again in the future ? 
> Because nobody has invented such a tool yet.  And even if that will be

Many have speaken about the social comittee, not even during a time i
was involved or about me. Nobody really tried to invent such a tool. I
have thought of it, and belive it is important for debian. I am planning
to reform the expulsion process, so it has none of the failing of the
current procedure, but well, i am hardly well placed to do this. We will

> the case in the future, I don't anticipate you to accept its handling
> of the issue.  Hence, its existence doesn't matter at all.  LET IT GO SVEN!

How, was it you who where accusing me of believing i know what other
think ? Erm, it seems i am not the only in this failing. Does this mean
you should be expulsed too ? 

> > > > > I would therefore ask you to reduce the volume of your posts on
> > > > > this subject by at least two orders of magnitude.
> > > > 
> > > > Sure, but what will it bring ?
> > > 
> > > Contrary to the flood of mails it has the potential to calm down the
> > > situation, at least for people not named 'Sven Luther'.
> > 
> > To what end ? So we can have this same mess in two weeks ?
> The so called mess is your flood of aggression, FUD and $whatever.

There are two needed to create a mess, as there are two needed for

I made numerous offers of reconciliation, but none was accepted or even

Let's work on a fair and honest resolution of this problem, and go back
to all happily coding ever after.

Who could reject that proposal ? What is so dangerous in it ? Why do i
need to be threatened and hurt because of it ? 

> > > > Would be a solution, but the problem is that there is absolutely no will
> > > > on the other side to even look at the problem, so i have no solution but
> > > > to make a fuss to say that the current situation is unacceptable to me.
> > > 
> > > The solution is you not having d-i commit permission.  You don't accept
> > > this.
> > 
> >   Message-ID: <20070529103814.GB31809@powerlinux.fr>
> >   My responsability :
> >     - I admit that the d-i team don't want to deal with me, too bad for
> >       debian and them.
> Great!  Now stop this rediculous thread and start living again.

Then have debian drop the suspension, who nobody in his right mind can
defend, which was a stupid decision full of irregularities, which by
itself only proves my point. And let's instead work all together to
setting up a tool to handle social problems in the future, and toward

Is this too much to ask ? Really ? What could you reasonably oppose to
it ? 

> > > Due to your behaviour you have also be suspended for a while.
> > 
> > Not due to my behaviour, due to unaceptable full play, and
> > irregularities in the expulsion procedure. This is not the same, and
> > this is the truth nobody wants me to claim loudly.
> Yes, because of your own behaviour.  Live with this.  You are
> responsible for how you are treated, not only and always other people.

I share my fair part of responsability, but no more, just as others
share their part of responsability. The world is not black and white,
but full of different shades of grey, and even colours. 

All i ask is a way to put this issue to a final rest in a fair and
honourable way, so we can all work on healing it, and look brightly at
the future.

Is this too much to ask ? Really ?

> > Well, i think you are wrong. 
> I know.  You believe everybody is wrong and is after you.  We all know
> that.  You have expressed this numerous times.  No need to repeat that.

Funny, how you paint it all black and white, and ignore all
argumentation in your discourse. And given that even after months and
months of me saying mostly the same thing, you and others still seem to
believe only what they think i say instead of what i really say, i guess
there is indeed a need for repetition.

> > The irregularities around the expulsion
> > procedure are hurting deban, and many are outraged by it, even though
> > they remain silent.
> YOU are hurting Debian AND YOURSELF much more than the expulsion
> procedure could ever do.

Ah, yeah, right. What damage could i do to myself after the DAMs
decision, i have nothing to lose, they took all from me, without giving
me any chance, juts because the other party was more influent. Let me
quote you an anonymous DD :

  I really want to know, as i personal believe that there really was
  foul play by some parties.

and this is indeed coherent with this current tentative to silence me.

> > But debian can grow up, and learn how to deal which such social crisis.
> In theory you could grow up and accept the reality.

Yes, as in theory you could grow up and accept it yourself. This mail
proves that i am much more mature than you in this aspect at least,
which is a shame, since i admired you since the first time we meet in
oldenburg 98.

How sad, ...

Sven Luther

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