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Re: Complaint about #debian operator

On Mon, Dec 12, 2005 at 01:59:05PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> also sprach David Nusinow <david_nusinow@verizon.net> [2005.12.11.0539 +0100]:
> > Martin, I'd like for you to come in to #debian. Not for an hour or
> > a few hours, but for a few weeks to see what it's like. We have
> > consistently refused to support non-Debian distros for years,
> > including knoppix and ubuntu. We always point people to where they
> > can get the help they need and try to leave it at that. 
> I have been on #debian for a while, and I can understand that you
> are fully booked. Still, #ubuntu is not the place to which we should
> send people when they want Debian vs. Ubuntu thoughts.

Have you been in the channel? I've never ever seen you in there. You
obviously haven't put in that much time answering questions.
http://debstats.dontexist.org/ doesn't have you on the list, so you can't
have been that active in actually doing the work. And #ubuntu is a fine
place to send people who want to compare the distros. This avoids the very
real problems with 
  1) Flamewars
  2) Trolling
  3) Non-Debian users asking for help in a channel that can't really help
  4) Debian users with problems getting ignored due to saturation of
     knowledgeable people's by non-Debian users.
Your solution totally fails to address these problems without creating
vastly more work for us chanops. Thanks for volunteering that we do this
work for you, but no thanks.

> However, some users just want a computer that works (the "plain
> users"). They don't want to have to learn too much about Linux or
> Debian, they just want to get work done. Even if our support forums
> are among the best in the field, that doesn't mean that a user wants
> to have to go there, just to get away from M$ by using
> a Debian-based system instead.

I don't parse this paragraph at all, but I will note that Debian used to be
the distro that "just works" (once you got past boot-floppies at any rate).
If you want Debian to get better at this, then just do it, don't just shrug
your shoulders and wait for Ubuntu to do it first. If we did this, then
people could use our distro and our support channels without problems.

> Let them use Ubuntu. What's the big deal? They can execute Debian
> commands and learn, and should they reach power user level, they'll
> come to Debian anyway. Isn't a new Ubuntu user also a new Debian
> user? And there are plenty of users who'll still plunge in at the
> deep end and "want to do it right from the start" by going for
> Debian.

I don't care if someone chooses to use Ubuntu. Nor do I care if they choose
to use Gentoo, Fedora, or Minix for that matter. What I do care is that
they take up my time, and make it difficult for me to work to help Debian
users in a Debian channel. This is something you seem to be forgetting. We
politely refer every ubuntu user to #ubuntu. That's where they should get
help, including questions relating to Ubuntu vs Debian.

> I think we all should spend less time figuring out the borderline
> between Debian and Ubuntu, but improving the way we cooperate.

If you'll note, I've been doing very public work in this exact field,
working extremely closely with Daniel Stone on bringing our Xorg packages
in sync. You can preach about doing this all you want, but I'm actually doing
 - David Nusinow

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