Re: Complaint about #debian operator
Hi,
On Sat, Dec 10, 2005 at 02:49:35AM -0800, Josh Rehman wrote:
> My apologies for sending this message here, but I wasn't sure where to
> complain. I've been an off-and-on debian user over the years. Lately
> I've used RedHat at work. I was thinking of trying Debian again, and
> heard about Ubuntu. I could find very little on the web compairing
> Ubuntu with Debian. I wanted to know a little more before making a
> choice, and a word or two from an experienced person would be enough.
>
> and the mention of 'On-line Real Time Help Using IRC'. Unfortunately
> this did not work out as planned. I was almost immediately banned for
> even mentioning Ubuntu. This when I had found someone with real-life
> deb and ubu experience ('det'). After the ban was lifted, the
> operator "dondelecaro' refused to answer my question about complaining
> about this annoying ban, and in fact banned me again when I mentioned
> this fact. Another user suggested that I send a message to this list.
Looking at the log, your question was being addressed for 10 minutes
before you were silenced (definetely more than "a word or two"), and
dondelecaro gave you useful input as well. When the discussion seemed
to drift away, you were advised to take it elsewhere, which you
declined. You were also warned several times that you were being
off-topic.
Also note that the channel's topic reads, besides others: "Please note:
this is not #ubuntu."
I don't particularly agree with the second ban, though.
> Let me say first that I don't expect much to come from this complaint.
> I understand fully well that Debian is organized and run by
> volunteers. Furthermore, my case is not clear cut since I wasn't shut
> down for asking about "KDE" when the moderator really only wanted to
> talk about "Gnome", for example. My query bordered on an advocacy like
> discussion. However, I think I was careful to keep it nuetral - I
> really just wanted to know what value-add ubuntu has over Debian that
> has given it such a buzz. In addition, the operator gave me no
> external link to read or alternative channel (with the exception of
> telling me to take it to #ubuntu which I frankly don't see why an op
> there wouldn't tell me to go to #debian...)
> If in fact I was in the wrong, I apologize, but if that's the case
> it's quite possible (even likely) that many users will be steered
> toward debian's IRC channel with the wrong expectations. Perhaps a
> disclaimer should be placed in the http://www.us.debian.org/support
> page that states, "The debian IRC channel is for technical support
> only. In other words, you should be posting nothing but error messages
> and the occasional config file. No other traffic will be tolerated."
In my experience, off-topic discussion is tolerated for a while until
it starts to drift away. The main purpose of the channel is indeed
end-user support, and maybe the description could be changed to better
reflect this.
Still, one would assume that newcomers (even to IRC) would accept that
their concern is off-topic and not try to argue with the channel
operators. Just because you know no better channel to ask, doesn't mean
an issue is on-topic in #debian.
Further, you were given directions on how to continue your discussion
with `det' in private, but decided to continue argueing against
`dondelecaro' instead.
> Full transcript attached. (My user name in the transcript is "josh__").
I took the liberty to edit it to the discussion at hand, to filter out
the unrelated chatter. My nick is `azeem'. Note that I do not think
that `deadcat' is acting reasonable in this discussion, either.
Attitudes like his make newcomers feel unwelcome and only add to the
heat.
[01:08] *** #debian was created on Fri Feb 09 15:16:24 2001
[01:08] josh__: is anybody home?
[01:08] deadcat: no
[01:08] deadcat: no one is home
[01:08] josh__: oh good didn't think so deadcat
[01:08] josh__: :)
[01:08] deadcat: shut up
[01:09] josh__: are you a troll deadcat?
[01:09] deadcat: josh__: what you think?
[01:09] deadcat: are you?
[01:09] deadcat: then dont ask
[01:10] josh__: yeah, i think you are.
[01:10] josh__: but i'm not sure
[01:10] dondelelcaro: josh__, deadcat: take it elsewhere, please...
[01:10] josh__: so, hi everybody, my question is this: how does ubuntu
differ from debian?
[01:11] josh__: is there a link I can read about the differences?
[01:11] dondelelcaro: josh__: depends on what day we're talking about;
that question isn't answerable trivially.
[01:11] poop: josh: Frequent releases, no root, gnome looks a bit more
polished to me
[01:11] josh__: no root?!
[01:11] poop: sudo, baby
[01:11] josh__: i'm just wondering why ubuntu has so much buzz ...
[01:12] dondelelcaro: josh__: ask #ubuntu then; it's off topic here.
[01:12] josh__: when it looks like 99% debian to me
[01:12] deadcat: josh__: because people like you
[01:12] kevix: josh__, could it be the billionaire who is behind it...
[01:12] poop: debian might be off-topic in #ubuntu
[01:12] deadcat: poop: ya. but this is #debian (=
[01:12] josh__: i figure old debheads would know the differences better
than the ubuntu folk
[01:13] josh__: kevix, who is this billionaire?
[01:13] dondelelcaro: josh__: mark shuttleworth
[01:14] stew: josh__: among other things, ubuntu focuses on delivering a
fancy gnome desktop and is willing to distribute software the
debian considers non-free
[01:14] josh__: and donde, i just read about mark - he created Thawte!
[01:15] dondelelcaro: josh__: yes.
[01:15] josh__: he was also a space tourist. cool guy.
[01:15] josh__: is there any resentment in the debian community with ubuntu?
[01:15] kevix: josh__, the coolest thing is that you can order free cd's
(I just got a box of 50 - x86,ppc,amd64)
[01:16] josh__: yeah, that's pretty amazing. and he's paying for it himself?
[01:16] deadcat: kevix: what you try to bankrupt them?
[01:16] poop: josh: I'm just a long-time debian user, but I don't resent it
[01:16] kevix: josh__, there was a lot in the beginning.... its a bit
less now as folks are cooperating more.
[01:16] det: josh__, I am a long time debian user turned ubuntu
[01:16] poop: josh: I cheered on Progeny because it had a slick
installer when debian's inspired nightmares.
[01:16] det: josh__, I just joined to ask dpkg to find a file for me! :-)
[01:16] josh__: so what made you switch, det
[01:17] poop: These debian derivates seem to come and go while debian remains.
[01:17] deadcat: i only use debian because of the name. whats this apt
shit you guys talking about?
[01:17] josh__: yeah, poop, i've noticed
[01:17] det: josh__, the concept of "everything just works"
[01:17] poop: derivatives
[01:17] kevix: josh__, when your a billionaire, whats a few cd...
[01:17] josh__: yeah, he could be doing worse things with his money kevix
[01:18] josh__: so ubu is easier to use than debian, det?
[01:18] deadcat: det: do use the word concept loosely... everything just
works my ass
[01:18] deadcat: josh__: shutup and go to distrowatch.com
[01:18] dondelelcaro: folks, please take the ubuntu discussion
elsewhere. This is not #ubuntu.
[01:19] det: deadcat, What do you mean?
[01:19] deadcat: dondelelcaro: the guy is a troll. telling you.
[01:19] josh__: gimme a break - my question relates to both distros donde.
[01:19] deadcat: det: lets just say alot fo shits didnt work on my
friends' computers
[01:19] koshnaranek: deadcats never lie
[01:20] deadcat: josh__: no your trolling. later you gonna go to
#slackware and do the same.. i've seen you in many distro channels.
[01:20] det: deadcat, What I am talking about is more than just hardware
detection (which was excellent in my case)
[01:20] josh__: det, did you find ubuntu easier to use than debian?
[01:20] * koshnaranek does the vorlon head turn cyclops eye move
[01:20] *** Mode change "+o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by ChanServ.
[01:20] *** Mode change "+b
%*!*@sealbch-cuda1-cable-bundle-68-69-28-142.lmdaca.adelphia.net"
for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
[01:20] *** Mode change "-o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
[01:21] det: josh__, I'd say that by default it is a nicer
configuration, less tinkering, and I like the 6mo cycles
*** blocked by ban: [01:21] josh__: cool thanks
[01:22] det: josh__, I also like the goal oriented development model
[01:22] deadcat: det: we dont care. can you guys /join #ubuntu please
*** blocked by ban: [01:23] josh__: what sort of development model does
debian use?
[01:24] det: deadcat, You certainly could have put it nicer than "we
dont care". Besides, I am contrasting Debian to Ubuntu, this is very
on-topic.
[01:24] azeem: det: this is a technical support channel, mostly
[01:24] deadcat: det: nope. thats the best i can do.
[01:24] azeem: distribution discussions are not a priori on-topic,
rather the opposite
[01:24] benjamindees: det, you should notice your chat partner isn't
with us anymore
[01:24] det: azeem, really, where can I find this channel-mission-statement?
[01:25] dondelelcaro: det: see /topic
[01:25] *** dao has joined #debian.
[01:26] det: dondelelcaro, I think you are blindly being rude to anyone
who utters "Ubuntu" when the topic is meant to mean that Ubuntu
users shouldn't seek technical help here.
[01:26] azeem: det: see above
[01:26] dondelelcaro: det: the topic is meant to curtail useless
discussions about the relative merits and demerits of various
distributions; this channel isn't here to do that. It's here to
support Debian. Nothing more.
[01:27] dondelelcaro: det: hopefully that's clear now.
[01:27] det: dondelelcaro, I would love to see this in print somewhere.
[01:27] dondelelcaro: *shrug*; consider it spoken ex cathedra.
[01:30] *** det has left #debian.
[01:31] *** Mode change "+o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by ChanServ.
[01:31] *** Mode change "-b
%*!*@sealbch-cuda1-cable-bundle-68-69-28-142.lmdaca.adelphia.net"
for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
[01:31] *** Mode change "-o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
[01:31] josh__: donde - where can i complain about that unnecessary ban?
[01:32] josh__: is debian-user the appropriate place?
[01:32] benjamindees: josh__, in #ubuntu
[01:32] dondelelcaro: josh__: you were silenced because you continued on
a topic that is off topic after being asked nicely to stop; if
you wish to complain, I'm the person to complain to.
[01:33] josh__: what is your email address? what is your position within
the debian group?
[01:33] josh__: from whom do you derive your authority here?
[01:34] azeem: josh__: he is one of the channel operators, therefore he
has the authority
[01:34] josh__: i am annoyed because I wanted to ask det a question
about debian's development model
[01:34] azeem: josh__: which is off-topic here
[01:34] josh__: now i will not have that chance
[01:34] azeem: josh__: feel free to ask him in private
[01:34] deadcat: no you dont. you just want to whine
[01:34] azeem: josh__: det ist still logged in
[01:35] josh__: i am not familiar with irc - i do not know how to talk
ot him privately or even find him
[01:35] azeem: /query det
[01:35] azeem: josh__: you need to register your nicht first, though,
see /msg nickserv help register
[01:35] josh__: donde: I still want to know from whom you derive your
authority. I believe you have misused it. debian-user?
debian-project?
[01:36] azeem: josh__: debian-project would be appropriate if it really
was misuse
[01:36] josh__: thank you azeem
[01:37] azeem: josh__: be advised that you will probably not get many
people agreeing with you
[01:37] PerfDave: The #debian IRC channel doesn't really have anything
to do with the Debian Project in terms of oversight or
authority.
[01:37] josh__: when this channel is listed on the "debian support" web
page, it doesn't mention that one will be treated with utmost
disrespect.
[01:37] azeem: PerfDave: this not really true
[01:37] PerfDave: josh__: We like to keep that as a pleasant surprise.
[01:37] deadcat: josh__: ya because you ahve to earn respect first.
[01:38] PerfDave: azeem: No, it is true. Every now and again a bunch of
Debian people come along, get all shitty and ban all the
regulars for no reason, then they get bored and fuck off again
and things return to usual :)
[01:38] dondelelcaro: josh__: in any case, if you have an issue, please
bring it up there. Continuing this discussion here will result
in a more permanent silencing.
[01:38] azeem: deadcat: no, we respect people who come here a priori
[01:38] azeem: PerfDave: that doesn't mean other Debian people are not
here, cf. dondelelcaro e.g.
[01:39] josh__: there is no discussion here, donde. I asked you where to
complain, and you did not respond except with more threats of
banning. This transcript will go to debian-project. Goodbye.
[01:39] PerfDave: azeem: Ther are Debian Developers here, sure, but
they're not representing the Debian Project in any formal
manner.
[01:39] *** Mode change "+o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by ChanServ.
[01:39] *** Mode change "+b
%*!*@sealbch-cuda1-cable-bundle-68-69-28-142.lmdaca.adelphia.net"
for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
[01:39] *** Mode change "-o dondelelcaro" for channel #debian by dondelelcaro.
Michael
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