On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 09:04:06PM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 12:36:54PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:40:56AM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:35:51PM -0700, tony mancill wrote: > > > > > I base that comment on my experiences trying to advocate Debian in > > > > > corporate environments, working with vendors and the rest of the "real > > > > > world" (where people don't always have choices to run free software). > > > > > It's disheartening to hear colleagues comment about what a bunch of > > > > > assholes the Debian people are. > > > > > > > > I can't help it you can't face the truth, I already have heard other > > > > people (who are already a DD) saying the same thing. > > > > > > Thanks for volunteering to write an open-source alternative to Ximian's > > > Exchange Connector. It's much appreciated. > > > > I already volunteer for enough things. > > Then I still have a need for non-free software. My company is an > almost-all NT shop, with an Exchange server. It's pretty damned hard > living without it. I don't see it why you die without that NT-shop. Is the exchange server some part of your body or what? > I'm paid to work with non-free software, so work with it I must. You choose to get paid to work with non-free software. Nobody forced you! > If you > can find a job that pays well and doesn't require me to do many hours, > while somewhat overlapping with my other main hobby, tell me where to > send my CV. Else, just accept that people have to use non-free software > in some circumstances; > especially in the corporate world where you have > vendors that expect you to (*gasp!*) pay for their stuff. > I try hard to advocate Debian and free software, but sometimes there's > nothing you can do, especially when there's no free software or even > open source solution for knowledge management. Look at how much you pay for the current solution. Try to find other companies who have the same problem. Then count up the total amount of money you have then. Can you write a free alternative for that? > > > Two wrongs don't make a right, eh? Just because others are being rude > > > doesn't mean you have to be. Sometimes it's justified, but attacking > > > someone just because he uses non-capital-F-Free software is unjustified. > > > I deal with non-free software every day - we employ a seriously non-free > > > vendor solution for Knowledge Management. I'm waiting so I can buy the > > > Exchange Connector, because I work in a largely-NT shop with an Exchange > > > Server. > > > > You choosed to work with non-free software. Then you should face the > > problems non-free software has and don't complain about those problems. > > If Exchange Connector doesn't work because of a fault in the way glibc > is packaged, or glibc itself, I have the right to complain and file a > bug. If it's a bug in the connector itself, the only people I can > complain to is Ximian. However, in this case, the fault was with glibc, > as Colin has stated. The damn problem is in Exchange Connector itself. If you don't believe me, do you believe the glibc maintainer? http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2002-04/msg00040.html Please don't tell me what the problem is, I do glibc development. And probably you also don't believe me, because you're just as stubborn as all those other DDs, so you can look at http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/pthreads to see my code. Pure facts, where are your facts? > > > > > No, because when you choose to speak for the project, there is a modicum > > > > > of decorum that should be observed. > > > > > > > > I will add "IMHO" next time. > > > > > > I agree with the original request. IMHO is not enough. When you post > > > with an @debian.org, you are implicitly speaking for Debian. Even if you > > > do put "IMHO", the users will still see a Debian developer flaming away > > > at those using non-free software. > > > > And who says I'm going to use that @debian.org address? > > You are still a Debian developer. The only way to not implicitly speak > for Debian is not to join. (Well, you're not a Developer yet, that > passage was meant for if/when you become one). Can you point me to the part of the social contract that says that you are not allowed to say things where Debian disagrees? > > > > I've expressed myself almost the same way on the debian-hurd > > > > mailinglist when somebody asked if the Hurd runs on VMWare and nobody > > > > complained about it. I can't help it that there are some non-free > > > > software loving people on debian-devel. > > > > > > You can't help it that they're around, so it's your duty to flame them? > > > Come ON! Where's the open-source alternative to VMware? I use Free > > > software when I can, but sometimes I can't. VMware is one area. I have a > > > webcam which is unsupported under Linux. I have neither the time nor > > > experience (despite being a "Linux Kernel Developer" ;) to write a > > > driver, thus I'm forced to use VMware and boot into Windows to use it. > > > > http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/plex86. The other alternative is to > > buy a second-hand computer for a price less than a VMWare > > license. (This is what I've done) > > And plex86 works on Windows? There are people working on a windows driver. Did you help? Did you pay people to help? AFAIK not, so don't complain that it isn't finished. You seem to consider VMWare a better place for your money. I have decided to put some of my spare time in the plex86 project. > > And you couldn't find a Linux hackers who wanted to write a driver for > > your webcam for $300 (the price of a VMWare license)? If you don't > > have the experience to write it yourself you can let someone else do it. > > Work pays for my VMware license as I need it to work effectively. They > won't, however, pay for another computer. You can't work effectively with another computer? Hmm... > > > At work I used to have to run Windows for a few things, and I generally > > > ran Linux in VMware under it. Now I don't have to do that, and run pure > > > Debian, but still, there are some cases where non-Free software is > > > unavoidable, and I'm sorry to say that you'll just have to deal. > > > > Non-free software is in almost all cases avoidable. People just don't > > care about and if there is a bug in the non-free software and the > > company doesn't provide a patch they start to complain! > > Yeah, see that little bit that says "almost"? That's pretty important. I > have to use Exchange Connector and VMware to get my work done. I have to > use a closed-source knowledge management system, because it's what I'm > paid to work with. You don't have to, you choosed to. I'm actually talking about things like a BIOS where it isn't avoidable at the moment. :( > Sometimes you don't have any option at all. The fact that Debian is my > hobby should indicate to you that Free software is my hobby, but it > doesn't mean that it's my exclusive life. Yes, when somebody points a gun to you you don't have. But in this case you have, but you seem to like getting paid for working with non-free software. That's your choice, don't complain if something goes wrong. > > > Being rude is not the answer to almost any situation, and flaming people > > > just because they use non-Free software isn't the answer, either. It > > > exists, it's unfortunate, but a company has to make money > > > *somewhere*! > > > > I have to eat. Am I allowed to kill you to get your food? I have to > > get my food *somewhere*. > > That's a bloody stupid comparison, and you know it. It is? I don't see a big difference. > > > Money doesn't just come floating out of trees to everyone making Free > > > software. > > > > It's already proven that you can make money with free software. There > > are also other ways to make money (working in a pizza shop for > > example), why do you have to limit the freedom of others just to get > > money yourself? IMHO that's just egoism. > > Ah yes, clearly. > > Like Eaz ... oh wait, sorry. > Or Xim ... oh wait, they're doing non-free stuff to make money now. > How about Mandra ... crap! Cygnus, they only fucked things up. It's perfectly possible, the fact that most companies don't doesn't mean it impossible. > > > > Then DAM has already failed with previous applicants. > > > > > > You're implying that elmo passed through every single person who is > > > currently a Developer? > > > > No, I don't see how I ever implied that. Why do you already take the > > assumption that I don't know how Developers came into Debian? > > You said that he'd "already failed with previous applicants". You have > no way of knowing whether it was Joey or James that passed them, or if > they've been around since Ian's time, or whathaveyou. I know who has passed DAM, it's clearly on http://nm.debian.org/maintainers.php. Your damn fucked problem is that you already make the assumption that I don't know it. > > > As I said earlier, two wrongs do not make a right. I urge you to read > > > this thread and reconsider your actions. I'm not trying to force you to > > > change your views, just a) reconsider them, and b) have a serious think > > > about how you express them. Just because Branden flames quite a lot, > > > doesn't mean that you should. > > > > If you would just have read the thread on debian-devel you saw I > > already did that. And I don't see why people have problems with > > Brandnen, he seems to be a very reasonable person to me. > > I do not think responding to bug reports with abuse is reasonable. Try > to be polite and have a little decorum. Well if it just the user who is stupid and just waits Branden's time. > You know, why don't you ask Debian people about me some day? I flamed > and abused anyone who I perceived to not be 100% with me, and look where > it got me. Not only did it make things hard for me, but abusing people > isn't ever really a nice thing to do. Maybe you should remove the assumption that the person you're talking to is more stupid than you and talk like he is much better than you. I did that wrong in my first post, I corrected it. Most Debian people I've spoken on IRC actually agree with me. Jeroen Dekkers -- Jabber supporter - http://www.jabber.org Jabber ID: jdekkers@jabber.org Debian GNU supporter - http://www.debian.org http://www.gnu.org IRC: jeroen@openprojects
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