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Re: sid: libc6-2.2.5-4 kills vmware workstation 3.0

On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:35:51PM -0700, tony mancill wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > > > Frequently, this utility comes via the use of programs that are not part
> > > > of, nor will ever be part of Debian.  Discouraging those who have a need
> > > > for such tools does nothing but harm Debian.
> > >
> > > On what do you base that?
> > 
> > I base that comment on my experiences trying to advocate Debian in
> > corporate environments, working with vendors and the rest of the "real
> > world" (where people don't always have choices to run free software).
> > It's disheartening to hear colleagues comment about what a bunch of
> > assholes the Debian people are.  
> I can't help it you can't face the truth, I already have heard other
> people (who are already a DD) saying the same thing.

Thanks for volunteering to write an open-source alternative to Ximian's
Exchange Connector. It's much appreciated.

> > Imagine that as a project member you are
> > a service provider.  A service provider can do 10 things right and be rude
> > only once, and still a user will recall the negative experience.
> Start by the people who are already a Debian developer and are even
> more rude than me. Or is it allowed to be offensive when you are a
> debian developer? Or do you have to agree with the person being rude
> before they can rude???

Two wrongs don't make a right, eh? Just because others are being rude
doesn't mean you have to be. Sometimes it's justified, but attacking
someone just because he uses non-capital-F-Free software is unjustified.
I deal with non-free software every day - we employ a seriously non-free
vendor solution for Knowledge Management. I'm waiting so I can buy the
Exchange Connector, because I work in a largely-NT shop with an Exchange

> > > Why do you think people with other views are a problem? Don't you come
> > > from a country where you have the freedom to say what you think? If
> > > you do, do you always walk away when somebody says what he thinks?
> > >
> > > Did also ever heard about ignoring/filtering the mails you don't like?
> > 
> > Sure.  But debian-devel is not a sounding board for your views.  It's a
> > technical list.  When you use it express your distain for non-free
> > software, you waste the collective time of the entire readership.  
> I just told the user the cause of the problem.

Rudely. I could say now that you're a fucking moron and claim that
that's the cause of this thread, but that's a) slightly unjustified, and
b) downright rude. Especially since this person has done nothing to
provoke you but try to use non-free software.

> > > > Developers can advocate applicants, but I'm not familiar with a method to
> > > > express reluctance concerning an applicant.  I'd like to request that the
> > > > DAM to reconsider Jeroen Dekkers' application for new maintainership, and
> > > > potentially place that application on hold for a period of time to further
> > > > assess the signal-to-noise his membership represents to Debian.  I believe
> > > > that his immaturity is detrimental to the project.
> > >
> > > Because you don't think the same way I do?
> > 
> > No, because when you choose to speak for the project, there is a modicum
> > of decorum that should be observed.  
> I will add "IMHO" next time.

I agree with the original request. IMHO is not enough. When you post
with an @debian.org, you are implicitly speaking for Debian. Even if you
do put "IMHO", the users will still see a Debian developer flaming away
at those using non-free software.

You really need to be a lot more careful when you post things,
especially if you intend to be a Developer. So far you haven't shown a
good understanding of the full ramifications of becoming a developer.

> > I have no interest in silencing your
> > convictions, and I'm not even disagreeing with what you've said.  I am
> > simply voicing my concern with *how* you've expressed yourself.  I believe
> > that there should be a certain amount of professional courtesy extended to
> > other developers and users.  I offering this same courtesy to you by
> > telling you why I would find it difficult to advocate you at this time.
> I've expressed myself almost the same way on the debian-hurd
> mailinglist when somebody asked if the Hurd runs on VMWare and nobody
> complained about it. I can't help it that there are some non-free
> software loving people on debian-devel.

You can't help it that they're around, so it's your duty to flame them?
Come ON! Where's the open-source alternative to VMware? I use Free
software when I can, but sometimes I can't. VMware is one area. I have a
webcam which is unsupported under Linux. I have neither the time nor
experience (despite being a "Linux Kernel Developer" ;) to write a
driver, thus I'm forced to use VMware and boot into Windows to use it.

At work I used to have to run Windows for a few things, and I generally
ran Linux in VMware under it. Now I don't have to do that, and run pure
Debian, but still, there are some cases where non-Free software is
unavoidable, and I'm sorry to say that you'll just have to deal.

Being rude is not the answer to almost any situation, and flaming people
just because they use non-Free software isn't the answer, either. It
exists, it's unfortunate, but a company has to make money *somewhere*!
Money doesn't just come floating out of trees to everyone making Free

> > In any event, my opinion carries no more weight than any other Debian
> > developer (and less that many), so there's little point in you feeling
> > threatened.  I'm simply stating, publicly, that I think it's important
> > that NM applicants exhibit the capacity for civil discourse on the lists,
> > and that a tendency to be abusive on the lists should be a factor in the
> > DAM's decision (which it may already be).
> Then DAM has already failed with previous applicants.

You're implying that elmo passed through every single person who is
currently a Developer?

As I said earlier, two wrongs do not make a right. I urge you to read
this thread and reconsider your actions. I'm not trying to force you to
change your views, just a) reconsider them, and b) have a serious think
about how you express them. Just because Branden flames quite a lot,
doesn't mean that you should.

Take it from me, I know.

Daniel Stone						    <daniel@sfarc.net>
<Neil> Error403: keep in mind 98% of sourceforge projects are whitepapers
from peopletaking CS1 in college :-)
<Neil> "Yes, I am writing a full-featured, 3D rendered Operating System.
We are in Stage -2: Pure Unadulterated Vapor"
<Neil> "2002-02-04 News: The new PHP is up! thanks to LoRdHigHMaSter for
his l33t html!"

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