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Re: sid: libc6-2.2.5-4 kills vmware workstation 3.0

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:40:56AM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:35:51PM -0700, tony mancill wrote:
> > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> > > > > Frequently, this utility comes via the use of programs that are not part
> > > > > of, nor will ever be part of Debian.  Discouraging those who have a need
> > > > > for such tools does nothing but harm Debian.
> > > >
> > > > On what do you base that?
> > > 
> > > I base that comment on my experiences trying to advocate Debian in
> > > corporate environments, working with vendors and the rest of the "real
> > > world" (where people don't always have choices to run free software).
> > > It's disheartening to hear colleagues comment about what a bunch of
> > > assholes the Debian people are.  
> > 
> > I can't help it you can't face the truth, I already have heard other
> > people (who are already a DD) saying the same thing.
> Thanks for volunteering to write an open-source alternative to Ximian's
> Exchange Connector. It's much appreciated.

I already volunteer for enough things.

> > > Imagine that as a project member you are
> > > a service provider.  A service provider can do 10 things right and be rude
> > > only once, and still a user will recall the negative experience.
> > 
> > Start by the people who are already a Debian developer and are even
> > more rude than me. Or is it allowed to be offensive when you are a
> > debian developer? Or do you have to agree with the person being rude
> > before they can rude???
> Two wrongs don't make a right, eh? Just because others are being rude
> doesn't mean you have to be. Sometimes it's justified, but attacking
> someone just because he uses non-capital-F-Free software is unjustified.
> I deal with non-free software every day - we employ a seriously non-free
> vendor solution for Knowledge Management. I'm waiting so I can buy the
> Exchange Connector, because I work in a largely-NT shop with an Exchange
> Server.

You choosed to work with non-free software. Then you should face the
problems non-free software has and don't complain about those problems.

> > > > > Developers can advocate applicants, but I'm not familiar with a method to
> > > > > express reluctance concerning an applicant.  I'd like to request that the
> > > > > DAM to reconsider Jeroen Dekkers' application for new maintainership, and
> > > > > potentially place that application on hold for a period of time to further
> > > > > assess the signal-to-noise his membership represents to Debian.  I believe
> > > > > that his immaturity is detrimental to the project.
> > > >
> > > > Because you don't think the same way I do?
> > > 
> > > No, because when you choose to speak for the project, there is a modicum
> > > of decorum that should be observed.  
> > 
> > I will add "IMHO" next time.
> I agree with the original request. IMHO is not enough. When you post
> with an @debian.org, you are implicitly speaking for Debian. Even if you
> do put "IMHO", the users will still see a Debian developer flaming away
> at those using non-free software.

And who says I'm going to use that @debian.org address?
> > > I have no interest in silencing your
> > > convictions, and I'm not even disagreeing with what you've said.  I am
> > > simply voicing my concern with *how* you've expressed yourself.  I believe
> > > that there should be a certain amount of professional courtesy extended to
> > > other developers and users.  I offering this same courtesy to you by
> > > telling you why I would find it difficult to advocate you at this time.
> > 
> > I've expressed myself almost the same way on the debian-hurd
> > mailinglist when somebody asked if the Hurd runs on VMWare and nobody
> > complained about it. I can't help it that there are some non-free
> > software loving people on debian-devel.
> You can't help it that they're around, so it's your duty to flame them?
> Come ON! Where's the open-source alternative to VMware? I use Free
> software when I can, but sometimes I can't. VMware is one area. I have a
> webcam which is unsupported under Linux. I have neither the time nor
> experience (despite being a "Linux Kernel Developer" ;) to write a
> driver, thus I'm forced to use VMware and boot into Windows to use it.

http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/plex86. The other alternative is to
buy a second-hand computer for a price less than a VMWare
license. (This is what I've done)

And you couldn't find a Linux hackers who wanted to write a driver for
your webcam for $300 (the price of a VMWare license)? If you don't
have the experience to write it yourself you can let someone else do it.

> At work I used to have to run Windows for a few things, and I generally
> ran Linux in VMware under it. Now I don't have to do that, and run pure
> Debian, but still, there are some cases where non-Free software is
> unavoidable, and I'm sorry to say that you'll just have to deal.

Non-free software is in almost all cases avoidable. People just don't
care about and if there is a bug in the non-free software and the
company doesn't provide a patch they start to complain!

> Being rude is not the answer to almost any situation, and flaming people
> just because they use non-Free software isn't the answer, either. It
> exists, it's unfortunate, but a company has to make money
> *somewhere*!

I have to eat. Am I allowed to kill you to get your food? I have to
get my food *somewhere*.

> Money doesn't just come floating out of trees to everyone making Free
> software.

It's already proven that you can make money with free software. There
are also other ways to make money (working in a pizza shop for
example), why do you have to limit the freedom of others just to get
money yourself? IMHO that's just egoism.

> > > In any event, my opinion carries no more weight than any other Debian
> > > developer (and less that many), so there's little point in you feeling
> > > threatened.  I'm simply stating, publicly, that I think it's important
> > > that NM applicants exhibit the capacity for civil discourse on the lists,
> > > and that a tendency to be abusive on the lists should be a factor in the
> > > DAM's decision (which it may already be).
> > 
> > Then DAM has already failed with previous applicants.
> You're implying that elmo passed through every single person who is
> currently a Developer?

No, I don't see how I ever implied that. Why do you already take the
assumption that I don't know how Developers came into Debian?
> As I said earlier, two wrongs do not make a right. I urge you to read
> this thread and reconsider your actions. I'm not trying to force you to
> change your views, just a) reconsider them, and b) have a serious think
> about how you express them. Just because Branden flames quite a lot,
> doesn't mean that you should.

If you would just have read the thread on debian-devel you saw I
already did that. And I don't see why people have problems with
Brandnen, he seems to be a very reasonable person to me.

Jeroen Dekkers
Jabber supporter - http://www.jabber.org Jabber ID: jdekkers@jabber.org
Debian GNU supporter - http://www.debian.org http://www.gnu.org
IRC: jeroen@openprojects

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