On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 10:40:56AM +1000, Daniel Stone wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 11:31:15PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 08:35:51PM -0700, tony mancill wrote: > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > > > > Frequently, this utility comes via the use of programs that are not part > > > > > of, nor will ever be part of Debian. Discouraging those who have a need > > > > > for such tools does nothing but harm Debian. > > > > > > > > On what do you base that? > > > > > > I base that comment on my experiences trying to advocate Debian in > > > corporate environments, working with vendors and the rest of the "real > > > world" (where people don't always have choices to run free software). > > > It's disheartening to hear colleagues comment about what a bunch of > > > assholes the Debian people are. > > > > I can't help it you can't face the truth, I already have heard other > > people (who are already a DD) saying the same thing. > > Thanks for volunteering to write an open-source alternative to Ximian's > Exchange Connector. It's much appreciated. I already volunteer for enough things. > > > Imagine that as a project member you are > > > a service provider. A service provider can do 10 things right and be rude > > > only once, and still a user will recall the negative experience. > > > > Start by the people who are already a Debian developer and are even > > more rude than me. Or is it allowed to be offensive when you are a > > debian developer? Or do you have to agree with the person being rude > > before they can rude??? > > Two wrongs don't make a right, eh? Just because others are being rude > doesn't mean you have to be. Sometimes it's justified, but attacking > someone just because he uses non-capital-F-Free software is unjustified. > I deal with non-free software every day - we employ a seriously non-free > vendor solution for Knowledge Management. I'm waiting so I can buy the > Exchange Connector, because I work in a largely-NT shop with an Exchange > Server. You choosed to work with non-free software. Then you should face the problems non-free software has and don't complain about those problems. > > > > > Developers can advocate applicants, but I'm not familiar with a method to > > > > > express reluctance concerning an applicant. I'd like to request that the > > > > > DAM to reconsider Jeroen Dekkers' application for new maintainership, and > > > > > potentially place that application on hold for a period of time to further > > > > > assess the signal-to-noise his membership represents to Debian. I believe > > > > > that his immaturity is detrimental to the project. > > > > > > > > Because you don't think the same way I do? > > > > > > No, because when you choose to speak for the project, there is a modicum > > > of decorum that should be observed. > > > > I will add "IMHO" next time. > > I agree with the original request. IMHO is not enough. When you post > with an @debian.org, you are implicitly speaking for Debian. Even if you > do put "IMHO", the users will still see a Debian developer flaming away > at those using non-free software. And who says I'm going to use that @debian.org address? > > > I have no interest in silencing your > > > convictions, and I'm not even disagreeing with what you've said. I am > > > simply voicing my concern with *how* you've expressed yourself. I believe > > > that there should be a certain amount of professional courtesy extended to > > > other developers and users. I offering this same courtesy to you by > > > telling you why I would find it difficult to advocate you at this time. > > > > I've expressed myself almost the same way on the debian-hurd > > mailinglist when somebody asked if the Hurd runs on VMWare and nobody > > complained about it. I can't help it that there are some non-free > > software loving people on debian-devel. > > You can't help it that they're around, so it's your duty to flame them? > Come ON! Where's the open-source alternative to VMware? I use Free > software when I can, but sometimes I can't. VMware is one area. I have a > webcam which is unsupported under Linux. I have neither the time nor > experience (despite being a "Linux Kernel Developer" ;) to write a > driver, thus I'm forced to use VMware and boot into Windows to use it. http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/plex86. The other alternative is to buy a second-hand computer for a price less than a VMWare license. (This is what I've done) And you couldn't find a Linux hackers who wanted to write a driver for your webcam for $300 (the price of a VMWare license)? If you don't have the experience to write it yourself you can let someone else do it. > At work I used to have to run Windows for a few things, and I generally > ran Linux in VMware under it. Now I don't have to do that, and run pure > Debian, but still, there are some cases where non-Free software is > unavoidable, and I'm sorry to say that you'll just have to deal. Non-free software is in almost all cases avoidable. People just don't care about and if there is a bug in the non-free software and the company doesn't provide a patch they start to complain! > Being rude is not the answer to almost any situation, and flaming people > just because they use non-Free software isn't the answer, either. It > exists, it's unfortunate, but a company has to make money > *somewhere*! I have to eat. Am I allowed to kill you to get your food? I have to get my food *somewhere*. > Money doesn't just come floating out of trees to everyone making Free > software. It's already proven that you can make money with free software. There are also other ways to make money (working in a pizza shop for example), why do you have to limit the freedom of others just to get money yourself? IMHO that's just egoism. > > > In any event, my opinion carries no more weight than any other Debian > > > developer (and less that many), so there's little point in you feeling > > > threatened. I'm simply stating, publicly, that I think it's important > > > that NM applicants exhibit the capacity for civil discourse on the lists, > > > and that a tendency to be abusive on the lists should be a factor in the > > > DAM's decision (which it may already be). > > > > Then DAM has already failed with previous applicants. > > You're implying that elmo passed through every single person who is > currently a Developer? No, I don't see how I ever implied that. Why do you already take the assumption that I don't know how Developers came into Debian? > As I said earlier, two wrongs do not make a right. I urge you to read > this thread and reconsider your actions. I'm not trying to force you to > change your views, just a) reconsider them, and b) have a serious think > about how you express them. Just because Branden flames quite a lot, > doesn't mean that you should. If you would just have read the thread on debian-devel you saw I already did that. And I don't see why people have problems with Brandnen, he seems to be a very reasonable person to me. Jeroen Dekkers -- Jabber supporter - http://www.jabber.org Jabber ID: jdekkers@jabber.org Debian GNU supporter - http://www.debian.org http://www.gnu.org IRC: jeroen@openprojects
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