On Wed, Apr 10, 2002 at 09:56:55AM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: > Mr. Dekkers, don't take this email as a personal attack. It isn't. > > On Tue, 09 Apr 2002, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 09, 2002 at 07:22:55AM -0700, tony mancill wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 11:47:42PM +0200, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > > > > > It's your own fault. You choosed to run non-free software, now you get > > > > > the consequences. Debian doesn't support vmware, so go somewhere else > > > > > with your vmware problems. (Debian does support plex86 and bochs, BTW) > > > I find this attitude highly offensive and unconscionable, particularly > > > coming from someone who is not even a developer (yet). > > Well, as far as I am concerned it would have been worse if Dekkers were > already a registered developer. It would mean he passed NM without a clear > understanding of the real position of Debian regarding non-free software, > and of the DFSG. It already has been, a lot of Debian developers I've spoken have the same opinion. If you look at http://www.debian.org/vote/2000/vote_0008, nobody even disagreed to remove the non-free archive. Now, are you going to ask to remove those 5 people from Debian because they don't understand the real position of Debian regarding non-free software? > Debian *does* tolerate software non-compliant to the DFSG, and will continue > to do so in the foreseeable future. It is in the social contract, and as > such it is very clearly stated in the last sentences of paragraph 5. This > is the plain truth. Oh, that vote on the url above actually shows a different thing. > Dekkers, you don't have to like it, but you have to follow this rule while > acting as a Debian registered developer. What you believe the social > contract should be does not matter at all; you have to follow what it really > *IS*. I am sure that by now you have seen just how many developers already > in Debian -- some of them who did a lot for Debian and have been with us for > a long time -- take to heart the fact that paragraph 5 is there in the > social contract. A lot of them disagree with it, don't follow the social contract etc. > You MUST understand that you have to work alongside with non-DFSG-free > software users, if you are to join our ranks. You don't need to like it, > but if you cannot handle that without being obnoxious, you will be a pain in > the ass for everyone. Debian will never stop being about DFSG-free > software, but it won't stop being about supporting our users -- including > those that use non-DFSG-free software -- any time soon, either. Are you sure? On what do base that? Because you want it this way? > I am sure you now know first hand just how instable a mix our mailinglists > are. Don't stir it or a lot of people can't help but lose a lot of time in > the resulting blow-up. THIS IS NOT FUNNY, we have a lot of real work to do, > and not enough people doing it. And why do you think we don't have a lot of people? Because some people are assholes on the debian-devel IRC channel or start flaming before actually reading the thread they reply to. > > > DAM to reconsider Jeroen Dekkers' application for new maintainership, and > > > potentially place that application on hold for a period of time to further > > > assess the signal-to-noise his membership represents to Debian. I believe > > > that his immaturity is detrimental to the project. > > > > Because you don't think the same way I do? > > Maybe it is because you have been more than a bit obnoxious about it lately, > Dekkers. Consider that possibility, please. Others have already told you > this, and I am telling you the same: it is not really what you said, it is > HOW you said it that is the biggest problem. Already a lot of Debian developers told me this: Don't care about those people not agreeing with you, go spend some time hacking. > Let me expand on that... Let's go back a bit in time. I first remeber your > name from the kernel packages naming thread. And my first impression of you > was not a good one. You came across, to me, as someone that could not and > would not wait for an opportune time to expose, and try to implement his > ideas. You also did not strike me as someone particulary tolerant of (let > alone open to) opposed ideas to your own either (especially because of the > kernel packages thread). I am, but you need to get some good argumentation. If you your argumentation is void, then you will never convince me. > Maybe those impressions I had of you are unfair; time will tell. However, > we just watched the flamewar that got started by you giving that same > impression to others, only that this time the mess directly involved an > user. Many developers take that as a Very Bad Move, to be immediately acted > upon. Maybe that was the reason the thread blew up that high, this time > around. The thread blew because those developers should take a reading course. > Still, IMHO you should seriously consider the possibility that you are > coming out as too agressive and confrontational (and therefore aggravating) > when talking about your personal beliefs, or pet projects. That's true, I already apologized. > Do you understand, now, that Debian is not made only of people that think > exactly like, or as strongly as you do, regarding non-free software? Do you > understand now why the Social Contract has that fifth clause, and exactly > what that clause means? Is it clear to you how the Debian project, as a > social system, keeps a balance between the first, and fourth (plus fifth) > clauses of the social contract? No, because the social contract is just too vague. > I advise you to seriously consider replying to the questions in the > paragraph above *at length*, and sending a carbon copy of that reply to your > AM so that he adds them to your application report. I already said I had moral objections to non-free software. I also said that some parts of the social contract aren't vague, for example what they mean with "commercial software": free or non-free? Jeroen Dekkers -- Jabber supporter - http://www.jabber.org Jabber ID: jdekkers@jabber.org Debian GNU supporter - http://www.debian.org http://www.gnu.org IRC: jeroen@openprojects
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