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Re: The problem with killfiles, and other musings [Was: Re: removal of svenl from the project]

On Sun, Mar 19, 2006 at 12:28:14PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:

> I was going to make a large answer where i was going to denouse the
> inexactitudes and false claims of this clearly inflamatory mail, but i will
> refrain from doing so.

> I wonder if Steve, and others of the 'esteemed' DDs, is following his own
> advice, and rereading the mails he writes, and if so, why did he need to add
> such a great amount of ad-hominem attacks again, and what was the added value
> it did bring to his point.

  "So Sven is going to continue to be used here as an illustrative example,
   not because I want to pick on Sven, but because I want to demonstrate the
   plausibility of the problem I'm talking about."

This was *not about you*.  I was not expressing support for expelling you
from the project, I was addressing the fallacious claim that killfiling
people we don't get along with is a fix for conflict.  I'm sorry if you felt
attacked by my mail, but not only was it not ad-hominem (since you were not
making an argument, I could hardly be trying to undercut a non-argument by
attacking your character!), it wasn't a criticism of you *at all*.  It was
only an enumeration of people in the project that I know you have (or have
had) an antagonistic relationship with, and a brief explanation of the
source of those conflicts.  It is a list of people in the project that, if
we were playing by Jonas's rules, I think *might* wish to killfile you.  I
don't see why you should be mad at *me* that I'm able to think of so many
people to put in that category.

> There are others in the project people have a difficult time working with,
> including some of the respected and eminent guys, but nobody would dare
> expulse them for it, or even critic.

We weren't talking about expulsions or criticism, we were talking about
killfiling.  I guess I could use myself as an example here instead of you,
and hypothesize about a group of developers killfiling me in response to the
Vancouver proposal; but killfiling someone just because of a technical
decision you disagree with is even more absurd, and I don't think even Jonas
was suggesting that.

> I mean, Steve mentioned the debian-legal thing, but failed to mention that
> part of my involvement with debian-legal (over the ocaml issue, but
> previously the XFree86 licence mess), made me the receiving end of a
> irc-witch-hunt from branden assufield and a few others i don't remember,
> which would have made andres have an heart attack had he seen it.

Er... how exactly does that invalidate my point about who might want to
killfile you in Jonas's world?  Do you think that your suffering on IRC
negates others' feelings about whether they find you difficult to work with?
Do you think it would be an improvement if, before sending my mail, I had
gotten affidavits from each of the people mentioned, stating how they feel
towards you?

And aren't your follow-ups here a perfect example of why people complain
about you personalizing all discussions?

Steve Langasek                   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer                   to set it on, and I can move the world.
vorlon@debian.org                                   http://www.debian.org/

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