Resend... pesky reply-to sender button... rather than reply-to-list button.
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Preface, I hope that some of you that read my previous response
understood that I understand that Eduard == blade@debian.org.
As I see he changed the e-mail address as well. The last little part
about getting involved was a piece of sarcastic Humor, which I hope
nobody took as serious, as it was directed at a Debian Developer.
For if anyone took exception to it (and there were, via private e-mail)
I apologize to you and Eduard.
Well, back to the Crispy Creme Game.
On Fri, 2004-07-09 at 03:07, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> #include <hallo.h>
> * Greg Folkert [Thu, Jul 08 2004, 08:12:37PM]:
> >
> > Oh, so now *I* have to manage *MY* choices with equivs now. Shoving YOUR
> > choices of what is best down my throat. I don't agree. How about if I
> > just want to run X applications (such as Mozilla) from a Workhorse
> > Server but display on a remote machine? Should I then have to have the
>
> Ehm, that is _exactly_ what I write about. Not everybody needs it and
> dozens of exceptions for such users (to not install 1-2 packages more by
> default) simply suck for the rest.
So, you still want to make me change the whole reason I went to Debian
in the first place. This is what some would call a stalemate. I believe
I am right, although I see you point, which I would agree is also right.
Now, what would happen if you used something like aptitude which acts on
'recommends' must like 'depends'? Would this help out the Newbie? Yes it
would as it is a much easier interface for them as well. Has
meta-packages has automatic selection of recommends, auto-removal of
un-needed, keeps track of those un-needed. Or for those that demand a
GUI, synaptic. Synaptic works in much the same way aptitude does for
Recommends etc.
Also, aptitude can be used nearly exactly like apt-get. Now tell me WHY
should I use *equivs* again?
> > print engine on that server? How about I only want some "X" libs on the
> > machine to compile something for another machine? Should I then have to
>
> I did not talk about libs but enduser applications. Don't read between
> the lines.
I do read between the lines, as there is nearly always something there.
Do not say it doesn't apply, Desktop vs Workstation is what you are
really battling here.
> > have Xprint on it then? I am guessing you only see your small part of
> > the world.
>
> No, you guess to much to talk about things that I did not write.
It really was a reaction jerker that didn't work. But I can see you
understand what I meant.
> > How about you take a look at what Debian is really about. It is not
>
> From your point of view, never forget it...
I don't, and never will.
> > about THESE set "set" of Definitions, it is all about being able to
> > Choose what you want despite of SOMEONE thinking I am crazy. Debian BY
> > FAR is not a Beginner's Distro. Although it can be, if they (the 90% you
> > speak of) are capable of comprehending guides and manuals and man pages.
>
> Following your attitude we should switch to Gentoo-like "installer"
> since "not-beginners" do not need comfort. Or what exactly do you want
> to say presenting this typical cliche?
Never said that, as you say, `don't read between the lines` But, I am a
firm believer in helping people that WANT to learn, not the "D00dZ, 1
Ju57 I|\|5t4ll3D D3b14|\|, 17 5uXX0rZ" ones that troll. Nor the ones
that just want the ANSWER. I give clues to help them find the answer,
usually.
> > You talk about exceptions... those are NOT exceptions. Heck, Debian by
> > default (base system) doesn't even install "less" or "wget". If you want
>
> You talk about completely different dimensions. The exclusion of this
> packages in basedebs is a choice that does not affect a specific group
> of users, while limiting the "set" of sensible Dependencies is only
> needed for a small group but touches everyone.
No not completely different dimensions. It is the exact same methodology
Debian uses for nearly everything. Less is more, if you want more,
install it. Yes, I have gone/do go through that phase every time I setup
a new machine without transferring my old build to it. So, when was the
last time you installed using a chroot to a new Drive, of using Knoppix
as the chroot environment? when I get done doing a fresh install, I go
to use something, it typically is not there, apt-get (or aptitude in a
new Debian user space) install it.
> > a distro that DOES everything for you, then get Linspire or Xandros.
>
> Or use the tasks. What's the point?
Tasks, don't make me laugh. It does a pretty crappy job compared to even
SuSE or Fedora. They do many preset installs for the default builds. I
call them "Kitchen Sink installs". I don't like 4GB of 75% useless to me
programs. Why should they even be there? Yet when i try to remove some
of them... it wants to remove huge swaths of other packages installed.
Hint: Try to remove the "Vendor Supplied Kernel" when you are using a
Custom Kernel. Nearly the whole system goes with it.
> > Debian *IS* the best distro ever if you can understand the ideologies it
> > is built upon. There is No Cost, there is No Company, there is No
> > Commercial Drive, there IS Volunteers, and lest you forget, we are
>
> And there is no need to make it difficult for people for rudiculous
> reasons (like space. When someone installs a monster like mozilla, there
> is most likely enough disk space to install the print system too).
The use the apropos tools to make it easier, but then you do know that.
But you STILL want to shove your choices down on me.
> > donating our time to help people like you, Fix your mis-understandings
> > about what Debian does or does not do.
>
> Dude, do you really need to become personal? Who are YOU that you come
> around and try to teach me about how my distro should look?
No, I am just reminding you that it is not *JUST* your distro. I am just
saying that sometimes, people lose sight of the fact they were supposed
to do while fighting off all the alligators, which was draining the
swamp.
> > You Speak of 90% of the users. I Call your Bluff to back that number UP.
>
> http://popcon.debian.org/main/by_inst.gz
>
> Okay, not 90 but about 70 (mozilla-browser / xprt-xprintorg). And since
> many did need to install it manually (while mozilla-browser is pulled in
> by various dependencies), I think the number was pretty close.
Fairy-huff. Your point there.
> > I'd be extremely surprised if you could prove 50% of Debian users are
> > NOT advanced/power/technical users (or prove that 50% are Beginner/Joe
>
> 1-34+123-45123-23451
>
> Nice number game, isn't it?
Now if had looked like this:
1-34+123-45123-23451=42
I'd have been much more impressed.
> > Blow/Aunt Tilly users). I'd even wager 75% of all Debian users are
> > Power/Advanced/Technical users. I am talking Debian straight, not
> > derivatives like Linspire or Xandros or KNOPPIX and their kind.
>
> You degrade Debian from a universal distro to a hacker distro, presuming
> that hackers need the full control and have enough spare time to care
> about every problem and every missing dependency. This is not the case.
> As admin of a system with several thousands user I tell you: this
> attitude sucks and did cost my working time to find out why the new
> mozilla did not print.
No, not hacker distro. Sensible when using the proper tools already
provided by said distro.
> > > mlterm (installing sane fonts by default)
> > Sane? By whose standard?
>
> By those who do not want to see extremely ugly fonts after the default
> installation.
Ok, I'll relent on this one too. As I agree.
> Regards,
> Eduard.
Once again, I apologize if the meaning of the "Get involved" statement
went over the top. It was not meant as anything but sarcastic humor.
--
greg@gregfolkert.net
REMEMBER ED CURRY! http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry
Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's
Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive
product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at
the playfield. -- Thane Walkup
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