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Re: Spam in the lists out of control

On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 04:48:10PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst scribbled:
> > > each and every one of them.
> > That's the attitude I'm writing about below. And I find no arguments
> > to counter that. I assume you're receiving tons of challenges from
> > many systems every day
> I'm not; however, I find them *far* more annoying than actual spam
> messages.
Let me ask you a question I asked Bas in the other thread. What if I receive
spam with your name on it and I write a _manually typed_ inquiry saying
"Hey, Wouter, is that you who sent the spam with this or that MessageId?"?
Will you treat it as spam? It will have all the characteristics (but one,
automation) of spam. It will differ from the TMDA challenge only by that
single detail, that it won't be automated. Will you still be annoyed?

> > and you have every right to be annoyed about the fact.  Let's end the
> > discussion, please, it doesn't lead anywhere.
> That seems to be the case.
alas, it could have been a bit more substantial and meritoric discussion.

> > > ?
> > > 
> > > Right. Got it.
> > And your point is?
> Don't fight evil with evil.
The world really isn't black and white.

> > I already know you're not a person one can cooperate with.
> Uh. What gave you that idea? Note that I only sent a few mails in this
> thread, perhaps you're mixing me up with other people?
Perhaps, I'm not saying I don't. If I do, then accept my apologies.

> > You have your strong points and beliefs and you're not going to change
> > them no matter what.
> That's not true; but in this particular case, I haven't seen any
> argument other than "it gets me rid of all spam at the cost of making it
> a bit worse for you; but see, you can easily get rid of all that, if you
> just jump through these hoops. Oh, and these too. And those."
Please, give me _one_ way for me to make sure a spam apparently originating from you
(with your, say debian, address), that is a person I don't know, wasn't sent
by you? The only thing I can do is ask - can I ask you should I receive such

> To me, that argument is the moral equivalent of dumping your trash in
> some random person's garden, and expecting that person to clean up. But
> then, perhaps that's just me...
Again, the world is not black and white.

> > This is so characteristic to a certain part of the free software
> > community, alas.
> It most certainly looks that way. Then again, looks can be deceiving...
With that amount of proof to support the assesment these days, I would say
it is not deceiving.

> > > There is none. When I get one of those challenges, they're dropped in my
> > > =.spam.missed, where a cronjob picks them up and feeds them to sa-learn.
> > > Works wonderfully.
> > Ok, you're right, I'm wrong. You won.
> I did not. This isn't about "winning" or "losing"...
Ideally it is not, but this is what seems to be prevalent in this community
- fighting for fighting. And you would think that technical people could discuss
technical subjects without involving emotions...

> > Now, let's end it here, it's a waste of time. Feel free to blacklist
> > grendel@debian.org and grendel@caudium.{net,org}
> Contrary to tmda users, I happen to think people sending me mail have
> legitimate reasons to do so, in most cases. I don't often blacklist
I think you, just the same as Bas, missed something I wrote before. The tmda
challenge is sent out (in our setup) only for mails that are scored by
spamassassin above 1.0 and below 10.0, so there is a very, very small chance
ANY legitimate mail will _ever_ be challenged. What is the chance of me
receiving a mail from you that would be scored in that range?

> people... in fact, my blacklist is empty right now, and I intend for it
> to stay so a while longer :-)
My blacklist is also empty and I never use it, I rely completely on
spamassassin and (soon) on tmda to keep my mailbox clean.

> > so that you don't happen to hit by my tmda in the future, it might be
> > harmful for your health.
> You'd need to do a lot more to do any harm to my health :-)
Hopefully :)



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