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Re: Spam in the lists out of control

On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 04:11:49PM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote:
> On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 03:42:19PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst scribbled:
> > On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 03:26:22PM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote:
> > > You say that I put the onus on the receiver. You're right to some extent.
> > > But, call me naive, I believe in people (sometimes) helping each other when
> > > the intent is clear and not harmful for anybody.
> > 
> > By sending me a mail, asking me to prove that I'm not a spammer, you're
> > wasting my time, bandwidth, diskspace, and CPU cycles. How is that not
> > harmful? By sending out challenges, you're not better than any spammer
> > out there just because you don't intend to sell me anything, or because
> > your mail is "easily filtered". After all, there are more
> > challenge/response systems out there than just tmda, and my filter file
> > is long enough as it is that I don't want to add a gazillion rules for
> > each and every one of them.
> That's the attitude I'm writing about below. And I find no arguments
> to counter that. I assume you're receiving tons of challenges from
> many systems every day

I'm not; however, I find them *far* more annoying than actual spam

> and you have every right to be annoyed about the fact.  Let's end the
> discussion, please, it doesn't lead anywhere.

That seems to be the case.

> > > them disappear from your mailbox. Thanks". Instead, what we get is
> > > "Hey dude! Get the fuck lost with your spam! I don't care about
> > > your problems, get away, I've got my problems you prick! You're a
> > > spamming asshole, loser!"
> > 
> > As opposed to
> > 
> > "Hey dude, I don't want to waste my time on all these silly spam
> > messages. My spamfilter thinks you could possibly be a spammer, so you
> > should shut up and prove you're not, and waste your time instead of mine
> > in the process, or I won't talk to you, loser! Oh, and if you didn't
> > send that mail, I don't care, go away!"
> > 
> > ?
> > 
> > Right. Got it.
> And your point is?

Don't fight evil with evil.

> I already know you're not a person one can cooperate with.

Uh. What gave you that idea? Note that I only sent a few mails in this
thread, perhaps you're mixing me up with other people?

> You have your strong points and beliefs and you're not going to change
> them no matter what.

That's not true; but in this particular case, I haven't seen any
argument other than "it gets me rid of all spam at the cost of making it
a bit worse for you; but see, you can easily get rid of all that, if you
just jump through these hoops. Oh, and these too. And those."

To me, that argument is the moral equivalent of dumping your trash in
some random person's garden, and expecting that person to clean up. But
then, perhaps that's just me...

> This is so characteristic to a certain part of the free software
> community, alas.

It most certainly looks that way. Then again, looks can be deceiving...

> > > or something in that spirit. Now, that's a true cooperation spirit.
> > 
> > Oh, absolutely.
> > 
> > > I can imagine cooperating with the Debian tmda maintainer to provide
> > > the procmail, maildrop, spamassassin filters to deal with the tmda
> > > challenges, so that they are shipped with debian and people are
> > > educated about the need for them
> > 
> > There is none. When I get one of those challenges, they're dropped in my
> > =.spam.missed, where a cronjob picks them up and feeds them to sa-learn.
> > Works wonderfully.
> Ok, you're right, I'm wrong. You won.

I did not. This isn't about "winning" or "losing"...

> Now, let's end it here, it's a waste of time. Feel free to blacklist
> grendel@debian.org and grendel@caudium.{net,org}

Contrary to tmda users, I happen to think people sending me mail have
legitimate reasons to do so, in most cases. I don't often blacklist
people... in fact, my blacklist is empty right now, and I intend for it
to stay so a while longer :-)

> so that you don't happen to hit by my tmda in the future, it might be
> harmful for your health.

You'd need to do a lot more to do any harm to my health :-)

     smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 -- with thanks to fortune

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