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Re: Discussion - non-free software removal

>>"John" == John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> writes:

 John> On Tue, Nov 12, 2002 at 08:41:59PM -0500, Matej Cepl wrote:
 >> That's exactly my point -- which free program should I use when I
 >> want to listen to RealPlayer only radio stations (www.wgbh.org,

 John> Why is removing non-free going to have any impact whatsoever on your
 John> RealPlayer?  You can still install and use it just like you can now.

	From where? I can install angband, for example, from Debian
 archive sites. Where shall I be able to install angband from after
 the resolution is passed?

 >> Until some better solution than the sacrifice is ready in the
 >> stable version, I will vote for keeping non-free in Debian. BTW,


 John> This GR, therefore, DOES NOT remove non-free from Debian.  It was never
 John> there.

	I find this post strident, and disingenuous. You state that
 non-free was never in Debian, a statement that is ambiguous, and thus
 only partly true.

	What you mean is that the non free software was never part of
 the Debian distribution, that is, the OS that Debian, the project,
 produces. True enough. But non-free software was provided, and
 supported, by Debian the project, and that is precisely what you are
 trying to take away.

	I have no objection to you trying to do that; but please
 do not try and put a spin on it. The debian project provides services
 for non-free softrware, archive services, bug tracking, etc, and the
 the users of this software shall be affected by this.

 John> My proposal will not remove your ability to use RealPlayer or any other
 John> non-free software.

	it will, however, remove your ability to get angband as a
 .deb, unless things change.

	I have heard statements that all the software to be evicted
 from the Debian projects archives shall not disappear off the face of
 the earth. True, again, as far as the statement goes: but the ease of
 use in gathering the canonical list of plase to get the software
 from is indeed going to be impacted.

	You are glossing over the value of the services we provide our
 users; after all, no one really needs a distribution to run Linux:
 real men gather raw software and compile their own OS from bare
 metal. Right.

	Having a canonical archive, complete with mirrors,
 administration, BTS, and until recently, QA during releases, was a
 service we offer these packages, and their users, and we are
 discussing whether we should take the services away.

 John> My proposal will not remove your ability to get RealPlayer as a .deb.

	But not angband.

	We should have, as aj puts it, the intellectual honesty to
 stand up and characterize what we are doing: in the name of long term
 benefit for freedom of software, we are planning on taking away
 services to software that does not meet our definition of free,
 despite the impact it shall have.

	I have long been of the opinion that non-free shall dwindle
 and wither away of its own accord.  The argument was easy to make
 when we were deciding on the content of the social contract; it was
 harder to make a couple of years ago; and now that things have
 changd, and free software has exploded, people who would place
 ideology first are harder then ever to convince.

	Before you draw conclusions about my stance on this issue, let
 me state that I have not yet made up my mind. Apart from java (which
 is not even in non-free), I only use graphviz and angband; so it
 wouldn't be that hard for me to give up and join the apathetic masses
 on this issue; I just was irritated enough by tone of this message to


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