Re: Debian menus policy
>> Erik Steffl <steffl@bigfoot.com> writes:
> the question is what good a menu is when you cannot get to it...
I see. And how exactly can a user not get to it? Or, given some of
the ideas flying arround the thread, how will a user that /does use/
Window Manager X in its usual configuration figure out that Debian's
default is something else? If he's got to read the fine manual, why
cannot the newbie coming from Windows do the same thing?
> > The point you are missing is that Window Maker doesn't like
> > overloading actions, and the authors are particularly sensitive to
> > overloading mouse actions. What you are proposing is "if the user
> > left-clicks, A happens; if the user
> > left-clicks+holds-the-button-down-for-more-than-N-
> > seconds-and-moves-it-M-pixels-in-that-timeframe B happens". If you
>
> don't be ridiculous.
I'm not. There's no such thing as a "mouse drag". A drag is defined by
the software using the mouse. Some authors choose to implement drag
with N=0 and M=1. I'm merely pointing out that Window Maker does not
make a difference wrt "mouse clicks" and "mouse drags" for binding
purposes. Button B is mapped to action A (for the purpose of this
discussion -- it does make a difference between mouse clicks and mouse
double clicks, but that falls out of scope)
> click and drag having different functionality is fairly common, even
> in ms win (the newbie system, generally considered non-confusing
> enough) [there is some discussion about how much different though]
You are starting from the premise that MS Windows does the right thing
(you didn't mention a specific version of the product, though). IMO
that premise is false. I'm not what you could call a "Windows user". I
know where to click when I have to make a Power Point presentation, but
that's as far as I go. I'm pretty Windows illiterate. The last time I
used Windows on a continous basis was four or five years ago. I have
unlearned its metaphors and conventions. It is *extremely* hard to use
once you get used to other -- dare I say, better -- systems. I'm not
against giving newbies a familiar interface to work with, but look at
fvwm95 (or its kin) if that's what you want.
> stupid me. I thought window maker is reasonably configurable (=user
> can assign actions to different common mouse activities (click,
> double click, dragging) and different parts of dektops (root window,
> decorations, windows). oh well.
I'm glad to see reasonable arguments injected in the discussion. Window
Maker does not offer that "kind" of configurability. If that bothers
you, go argue with the authors. Beware, you are not the first one to
walk down that path. Read the wm-dev and wm-user list archives if you
are serious about it.
> > (the last entry on Apps). With Window Maker you can go from Apps
> > to Viewers along the obvious path. You don't have to move the
> > mouse to
>
> what is the obvious path?
A straight line? You see two elements on the screen. You want to go
from one to the other, while dragging the mouse. What is the obvious
way to do it?
I just tried with the Gimp. Right drag on the canvas. File -> Quit.
About 3 out of 5 times some other submenu opens before I get to Quit.
> one meaning of obvious path would be the shortest path but you can't,
> you'd have to cross the Games and other items which would open Games
> (or other) menu and App menu is gone. So you can take any path which
> avoids the rest of the main menu - the same for gnome or fvwm (or
> other) menu... what is it that I'm missing.
Maybe it's me, but with Window Maker I can consistently move the mouse
in a more or less straight line and succeed at what I want to do. I
know the feature has been tuned to work for a large number of users.
AFAIR the timeouts are configurable.
> are you trying to dictate what I should do? IMO a little bit of
> consistency in how the debian system works wouldn't hurt.
It hurts when one tries to make things uniform for uniformness' sake.
Users do not switch from Window Manager to window manager on a daily
basis. The fact that there are so many is due to the fact that people
have different views regarding what's the right thing to do when it
comes to daily desktop interaction. Some people want the window that's
got the focus to be large and the others small (but still visible).
Others want an intuitive (for some definition of intuitive) interaction
with the desktop. Others want eye candy. Others want customizability
and programability. Trying to force a policy on all this divergent
views won't buy you any good.
> and, seeing the 'configurability' of window maker I see there is no
> danger of binding debian app menu to single click in root window...
> so you don't even have to say please for me to stop:-)
It's already that way by default. What I won't change is which button
it is. Upstream says that in the default configuration the right mouse
button brings up and application menu and it's going to stay that way.
--
Marcelo | "Nulli Sheilae sanguineae"
mmagallo@debian.org | -- (Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent)
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