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Re: [Debconf-team] Request for a debconf keynote


On Sun, 2008-04-27 at 00:41 +0400, martin f krafft wrote:
> All of this email is *my* point of view and does not represent the
> debconf team's view or has been endorsed by anyone else.

It's nice to know it and have this point clear.

> That said, this is the last email I will send on the subject on this
> list, because it might be taken by some as a personal issue. I'd
> like to say it isn't. I'd like to say that I am acting on behalf of
> a project which I believe in.
> also sprach Mark Shuttleworth <mark@ubuntu.com> [2008.04.22.2307 +0400]:
> > I disagree with your characterization that nothing has been
> > implemented.  In fact, lots of things have been implemented, and
> > I agree that this is  largely thanks to the willingness of
> > individuals rather than effective  engagement at the "whole
> > project" level.
> I am all too happy to be proven wrong. Can you provide concrete
> examples, please? Please understand that I am not trying to be
> facetious or sarcastic at all; challenging maybe, but open-minded.

One thing i thing it has been improved is the fact that the Original
debian maintainers are not listed as the maintainers on ubuntu anymore,
but also metioned as ubuntu maintainers. And that, as far as i know, was
something Mark talked to the DPL on Mexico.

Also in the DCT team we are working on making a better relation between
out project, i have been personally trying to use patch systems, and
make other use them so you don't need to browse a 200K size patch, but
you can check at separate patch files and implement the one you are
interested in, but it's not easy to do such work on debian packages who
doesn't use patch systems, because it makes it hard to maintain.

Also we have are implementing (it's working, but not as wide as we would
like to) UserTagging so on debian you can see that we have do this work.
So i think a lot of things *have* been implemented, but it's hard to
work on collaborating to some people, that doesn't want to receive
collaboration from ubuntu, because it comes from ubuntu (i'm not talking
about all the DD's, but about some of them).

> > I hope you don't feel that Ubuntu has failed to initiate contact
> > and  reach out to Debian. I have personally sent mail, and
> > attempted to speak  with, successive DPL's.
> You used to be a DD, and you still are; you should know the role of
> the DPL and what it entails, and specifically what not.
> > Hopefully, the new DPL will be open to this  communication, but my
> > realisation earlier this year was that the right  way to reach the
> > project as a whole is literally, to try to engage  publicly with
> > the whole community, not through a single individual who is
> > usually overloaded.
> Maybe it's entirely my fault, but I have not seen such concerted
> efforts from Ubuntu. I myself get regular, automated mails about
> patches of 200k size for my packages (like mdadm), but that's about
> it. I was approached once about integrating Ubuntu's nice work on
> mdadm, but nothing more than the initial ping.
> I don't see any proposals from Ubuntu on how to improve things.
> Yet, I am aware of excellent collaboration in certain subprojects.
> >> If you don't want to make it all public yet, you're welcome to
> >> email them to the papers committee <committee@debconf.org>, and
> >> please put me on CC explicitly.
> >>
> > I would ask you to consider the exception on the basis that Ubuntu
> > is  important to Debian, not to judge the specifics of the talk in
> > advance.
> How is Ubuntu important to Debian? I am not claiming it isn't, or
> questioning it, but genuinly interested in your take on this.

I think ubuntu is important to debian on lots of ways, for example, and the most important IMHO is that on ubuntu the packages are released earlier on a stable version, so it has a lot of testing that debian can take approach of, and patch the errors found on ubuntu stable release, which may be on testing or unstable release on Debian still.

> > You accord some leaders of the project time and space to present
> > their  vision of what's important and what's topical, and I'm
> > asking for the  same opportunity.
> We have the DPL address, but that's hardly visionary; it's the DPL
> address. People go there because that's what you do, not because
> they're looking for the big eye-openers.. Debian is about work done,
> not work that could get done.
> > Some folks may say "why should the leader of a  different project
> > get high profile time at *our* conference". My view is  that
> > Ubuntu is part of the Debian family, and is in fact a very
> > valuable  and important part, and so it is reasonable to create
> > a dedicated space  for a presentation along those lines. I would
> > be quite comfortable to  share that time with leaders of other
> > high-profile or very interesting  Debian derivatives who are also
> > bringing new users to Debian, and which  can also play a vital
> > role in the next year of the project.
> So far, apart from individual collaboration e.g. on the X and
> Python fronts, I have yet to see this vital role. Note that I am
> specifically speaking for myself, not the debconf team.
> >> PS: I would (personally) also be interested in the relationship
> >> of your proposal to http://vcs-pkg.org, but that's tangential.
> >
> > I haven't looked at that. I haven't yet assembled a detailed list
> > of  proposals. For that, I would ask the lead contributors to
> > Ubuntu,  especially those who are also DD's, to consolidate their
> > best ideas for  me to present. I don't really want to ask them to
> > do that work if there  isn't the opportunity to present it in
> > a compelling way, to Debian as a  whole, which is why I'm making
> > this unusual request.
> I'd say that such a consolidated list of things would also be of
> great benefit to our collaboration if posted to a mailing list.
> I don't see why it has to be linked to us giving you the slot or
> not.
> Again, this is *my* view. If you want to take this issue further,
> please reply to me in private or on the debian-project mailing list.
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