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Re: [Debconf-team] Request for a debconf keynote

All of this email is *my* point of view and does not represent the
debconf team's view or has been endorsed by anyone else.

That said, this is the last email I will send on the subject on this
list, because it might be taken by some as a personal issue. I'd
like to say it isn't. I'd like to say that I am acting on behalf of
a project which I believe in.

also sprach Mark Shuttleworth <mark@ubuntu.com> [2008.04.22.2307 +0400]:
> I disagree with your characterization that nothing has been
> implemented.  In fact, lots of things have been implemented, and
> I agree that this is  largely thanks to the willingness of
> individuals rather than effective  engagement at the "whole
> project" level.

I am all too happy to be proven wrong. Can you provide concrete
examples, please? Please understand that I am not trying to be
facetious or sarcastic at all; challenging maybe, but open-minded.

> I hope you don't feel that Ubuntu has failed to initiate contact
> and  reach out to Debian. I have personally sent mail, and
> attempted to speak  with, successive DPL's.

You used to be a DD, and you still are; you should know the role of
the DPL and what it entails, and specifically what not.

> Hopefully, the new DPL will be open to this  communication, but my
> realisation earlier this year was that the right  way to reach the
> project as a whole is literally, to try to engage  publicly with
> the whole community, not through a single individual who is
> usually overloaded.

Maybe it's entirely my fault, but I have not seen such concerted
efforts from Ubuntu. I myself get regular, automated mails about
patches of 200k size for my packages (like mdadm), but that's about
it. I was approached once about integrating Ubuntu's nice work on
mdadm, but nothing more than the initial ping.

I don't see any proposals from Ubuntu on how to improve things.
Yet, I am aware of excellent collaboration in certain subprojects.

>> If you don't want to make it all public yet, you're welcome to
>> email them to the papers committee <committee@debconf.org>, and
>> please put me on CC explicitly.
> I would ask you to consider the exception on the basis that Ubuntu
> is  important to Debian, not to judge the specifics of the talk in
> advance.

How is Ubuntu important to Debian? I am not claiming it isn't, or
questioning it, but genuinly interested in your take on this.

> You accord some leaders of the project time and space to present
> their  vision of what's important and what's topical, and I'm
> asking for the  same opportunity.

We have the DPL address, but that's hardly visionary; it's the DPL
address. People go there because that's what you do, not because
they're looking for the big eye-openers.. Debian is about work done,
not work that could get done.

> Some folks may say "why should the leader of a  different project
> get high profile time at *our* conference". My view is  that
> Ubuntu is part of the Debian family, and is in fact a very
> valuable  and important part, and so it is reasonable to create
> a dedicated space  for a presentation along those lines. I would
> be quite comfortable to  share that time with leaders of other
> high-profile or very interesting  Debian derivatives who are also
> bringing new users to Debian, and which  can also play a vital
> role in the next year of the project.

So far, apart from individual collaboration e.g. on the X and
Python fronts, I have yet to see this vital role. Note that I am
specifically speaking for myself, not the debconf team.

>> PS: I would (personally) also be interested in the relationship
>> of your proposal to http://vcs-pkg.org, but that's tangential.
> I haven't looked at that. I haven't yet assembled a detailed list
> of  proposals. For that, I would ask the lead contributors to
> Ubuntu,  especially those who are also DD's, to consolidate their
> best ideas for  me to present. I don't really want to ask them to
> do that work if there  isn't the opportunity to present it in
> a compelling way, to Debian as a  whole, which is why I'm making
> this unusual request.

I'd say that such a consolidated list of things would also be of
great benefit to our collaboration if posted to a mailing list.
I don't see why it has to be linked to us giving you the slot or

Again, this is *my* view. If you want to take this issue further,
please reply to me in private or on the debian-project mailing list.

 .''`.   martin f. krafft <madduck@debconf.org>
: :'  :  DebConf orga team; press officer
`. `'`
  `-  DebConf8, 10-16 Aug 2008, Argentina: http://debconf.org
love your enemies; they'll go crazy
trying to figure out what you're up to.

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