All of this email is *my* point of view and does not represent the debconf team's view or has been endorsed by anyone else. That said, this is the last email I will send on the subject on this list, because it might be taken by some as a personal issue. I'd like to say it isn't. I'd like to say that I am acting on behalf of a project which I believe in. also sprach Mark Shuttleworth <firstname.lastname@example.org> [2008.04.22.2307 +0400]: > I disagree with your characterization that nothing has been > implemented. In fact, lots of things have been implemented, and > I agree that this is largely thanks to the willingness of > individuals rather than effective engagement at the "whole > project" level. I am all too happy to be proven wrong. Can you provide concrete examples, please? Please understand that I am not trying to be facetious or sarcastic at all; challenging maybe, but open-minded. > I hope you don't feel that Ubuntu has failed to initiate contact > and reach out to Debian. I have personally sent mail, and > attempted to speak with, successive DPL's. You used to be a DD, and you still are; you should know the role of the DPL and what it entails, and specifically what not. > Hopefully, the new DPL will be open to this communication, but my > realisation earlier this year was that the right way to reach the > project as a whole is literally, to try to engage publicly with > the whole community, not through a single individual who is > usually overloaded. Maybe it's entirely my fault, but I have not seen such concerted efforts from Ubuntu. I myself get regular, automated mails about patches of 200k size for my packages (like mdadm), but that's about it. I was approached once about integrating Ubuntu's nice work on mdadm, but nothing more than the initial ping. I don't see any proposals from Ubuntu on how to improve things. Yet, I am aware of excellent collaboration in certain subprojects. >> If you don't want to make it all public yet, you're welcome to >> email them to the papers committee <email@example.com>, and >> please put me on CC explicitly. >> > I would ask you to consider the exception on the basis that Ubuntu > is important to Debian, not to judge the specifics of the talk in > advance. How is Ubuntu important to Debian? I am not claiming it isn't, or questioning it, but genuinly interested in your take on this. > You accord some leaders of the project time and space to present > their vision of what's important and what's topical, and I'm > asking for the same opportunity. We have the DPL address, but that's hardly visionary; it's the DPL address. People go there because that's what you do, not because they're looking for the big eye-openers.. Debian is about work done, not work that could get done. > Some folks may say "why should the leader of a different project > get high profile time at *our* conference". My view is that > Ubuntu is part of the Debian family, and is in fact a very > valuable and important part, and so it is reasonable to create > a dedicated space for a presentation along those lines. I would > be quite comfortable to share that time with leaders of other > high-profile or very interesting Debian derivatives who are also > bringing new users to Debian, and which can also play a vital > role in the next year of the project. So far, apart from individual collaboration e.g. on the X and Python fronts, I have yet to see this vital role. Note that I am specifically speaking for myself, not the debconf team. >> PS: I would (personally) also be interested in the relationship >> of your proposal to http://vcs-pkg.org, but that's tangential. > > I haven't looked at that. I haven't yet assembled a detailed list > of proposals. For that, I would ask the lead contributors to > Ubuntu, especially those who are also DD's, to consolidate their > best ideas for me to present. I don't really want to ask them to > do that work if there isn't the opportunity to present it in > a compelling way, to Debian as a whole, which is why I'm making > this unusual request. I'd say that such a consolidated list of things would also be of great benefit to our collaboration if posted to a mailing list. I don't see why it has to be linked to us giving you the slot or not. Again, this is *my* view. If you want to take this issue further, please reply to me in private or on the debian-project mailing list. -- .''`. martin f. krafft <firstname.lastname@example.org> : :' : DebConf orga team; press officer `. `'` `- DebConf8, 10-16 Aug 2008, Argentina: http://debconf.org love your enemies; they'll go crazy trying to figure out what you're up to.
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