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Re: Changing how we handle non-free firmware

Quoting Philip Hands (2022-08-23 10:44:55)
> Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> writes:
> > Quoting Tobias Frost (2022-08-22 15:57:01)
> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 07:39:21AM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> >> > Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> writes:
> >> > 
> >> > > On Fri, 2022-08-19 at 16:23 +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> >> > >> Do we need to update the Debian Social Contract for that?
> >> > >> Specifically paragraph 1, which currently reads
> >> > >> 
> >> > >>      Debian will remain 100% free
> >> > >
> >> > > No. Just like we don't need to update the Debian Social Contract for
> >> > > having https://deb.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free/: we just ship
> >> > > additional files that might be useful for people having specific
> >> > > hardware.
> >> > 
> >> > I disagree -- what is being proposed here is to replace our current
> >> > DSC-compatible free software installer images with non-free.  That goes
> >> > significantly further than what the spirit of DSC§5 suggests.
> >> 
> >> It not being replaced; there are just additional bits in there which
> >> help people to actually be able to install Debian on some modern machines.
> >> 
> >> The guarantee in SC1 that we will never *require* those non-free bits, as writen
> >> out in "We will never make the system require the use of a non-free component."
> >> This GR does not violate this promise.
> >
> > I understand how we will not require non-free bits getting *installed*.
> >
> > The way I see it, with this change we will require non-free bits for
> > *distribution* of our system, because our official installer will now
> > include non-gree bits.
> Would those arguing for the availability of the 100%-free installer find
> it acceptable if there was a way of cleansing the non-free bits from the
> includes-nonfree-firmware installer images?
> I'd guess that one could put the non-free bits on the end of the image,
> as an additional session, or perhaps just mark them in the image, and
> then reasonably trivially trim them off, or blank them out.
> We could then generate the firmware-included images, but make the
> cleansed ones available on-line by having a server-side script trim out
> the non-free bits on the fly.
> If that still makes you feel dirty, because the free bits were once
> next-door to some non-free bits, would it make any difference if the
> resulting images could be built reproducibly without access to any of
> the non-free components?
> I'm mostly asking this to find out where people's lines are, but also in
> the hope that we could come up with a compromise that allows us to get
> away from the enthusiasm sapping situation where the debian-cd team is
> required to make images that they know are sub-optimal for many of our
> users.

Thanks, Phil, for "reaching out".

I view the official Debian install image as a component of Debian, and
consequently if the (only) official Debian install image were to contain
non-free bits then we would violate DSC#1.

It is my understanding that those viewing this move to include non-free
bits in the official Debian install image consider the install image
*not* one of "its components" as defined in DSC#1.

I would find it problematic if the official way to install Debian
*required* a non-DFSG image.

To clarify: I would *not* find it problematic if an image containing
non-free bits were produced and promoted more prominently by us, as long
as it would remain *unofficial* - i.e. a DFSG-compliant image would
continue to be provided and supported.

As I understand it, your first suggestion above (building image with
non-free bits but in a way that supports stripping again afterwards)
would not address my concern, but the second one might (if actually
done officially, but not if offered only as an unofficial option).

I hope that my concern is clear, that you recognize it as real (not me
being a lunatic), and that we can address the concern in a way that does
not burden the debian-cd team.

 - Jonas

 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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