Re: EUREKA!!!! - was [Re: Permissions for an entire PARTITION]
On Sat 29 Oct 2016 at 18:48:11 +0300, Reco wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 15:09:09 +0100
> Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Sat 29 Oct 2016 at 15:54:59 +0300, Reco wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:16:18 -0400
> > > rhkramer@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'll say that the wiki page gave no hint as to which of the three options to
> > > > install, or any hint that one might work better than another.
> > >
> > > The page is describing 'Producing an automated install of a Debian
> > > operating system from a USB stick', to quote it. For such an advanced
> > > task it can be safely assumed IMO that the person who's implementing the
> > > instruction is familiar with the basic concepts of a 'file system' or
> > > 'mounting'.
> >
> > The question of providing guidance on which of the three tools to use is
> > an interesting one. As far as possible a wiki page like this one should
> > stick to facts and technical matters; venturing into the area of opinion
> > isn't the way to go, IMO. Do any of these tools have a distinct
> > technical advantage for the purpose of installing GRUB is the question
> > to ask and answer? If the answer is "no" don't they deserve equal
> > exposure?
>
> No advantage that I'm aware of. In fact, the whole paragraph could be
> shortened to already existing text:
>
> If you are working within one of the desktop environments it is very
> likely the mounting can be done from he file manager which comes with
> it. This is because udisks2 will be on the system. A label will
> possibly be used for the mount point.
I wish you had addressed the "equal exposure" question. Desktops are not
the only environments in town. Leaving non-policykit users out in the
cold is not an option.
> > The tools exist and all can be assumed to work. The choice of which one
> > to use is up to the user. For many users a couple of clicks on a desktop
> > will get the stick mounted; others might like the challenge of using a
> > new tool.
>
> My point exactly. Why bother naming all these tools if it all comes down
> to "you might use your file manager to do this part for you as well"?
It doesn't come down to that; using a desktop filemanager is just one of
the alternatives. One could equally well ask why it is has to mentioned
when there is
> Install pmount, udevil or udisks2 and use one .....
Providing a range of advice for a range of people isn't exactly easy in
all situations. Advice on installing a wifi kernel module is easy -
there is only one for each chipset. A page on pmount is a little harder
because it is a moving target. (The link you gave has out-of-date info
on HAL). Anything more complex can always be criticised as time moves
on.
But your sort of constructive criticism is valuable.
> > A few might say - "Hey, interesting, never knew about that;
> > I'll give it a go". And then go on to use it in another context.
>
> True, but why stop here? Author(s?) of the page might mention usbmount
> and supermount as well.
You are getting carried away here. Both are for *automatically* mounting
and unmounting removable media, which is not a focus for the task.
There is no sign of supermount in stable or unstable.
> > > It can be argued (again IMO) that the 3 tools proposed are not the best
> > > ones available for the task, or downright redundant due to availability
> > > of mount(8), but all three mentioned tools are in fact are links to [2].
> > > Broken ones (for me at least), but they are links to manpages for the
> > > mentioned tools. Surely a manpage can be viewed as a suitable source of
> > > hints you're referring to.
> >
> > mount is a root-only tool; the others aren't. Need I say more?
>
> Yes, I believe you do.
As little as possible should be done as root is a good principle.
> The page mentions 'Check the mount point from within the fie manager or
> with the command "mount"' (curious typo btw), rightfully assuming that
> one does not need to be root to do that.
C'mon; pointing out a typo! This is unworthy of you, even as an aside.
> The bottom of the page mentions at least one operation that needs to be
> performed as root, so why exactly mounting USB stick as root is somehow
> a bad thing in this context?
Excellent point. This will lead to a rewriting.
The problem at the time was that Wheezy and Jessie behaved differently.
It is mentioned (bug #751892) that root may be necessary. Now Wheezy is
unsupported references to it can go.
> > The Debian manpages site is broken and awaiting relocation to a new
> > host.
>
> Here I can only assume that this useful service was available at the
> time that page was written.
Good thinking, Batman. :)
> > > > Of course,
> > > > until this issue came up, no one may have expected one to work better than
> > > > another, so then someone reading that page could, quite appropriately, try one
> > > > and not the others, and assume that there was no more useful information on
> > > > the page.
> > >
> > > I agree that the page provides unnecessary choice in this regard, and
> > > for the sake of clarity of this topic [3] would be more appropriate.
> >
> > Fair enough. But why not udisks2? After all, it will already be on many
> > machines.
>
> No reason, really. pmount was mentioned first on the page.
Mounting and unmounting are not really a problem. Users and root can
easily do these. But, as far as I can see, only someone with root
privileges can use dd, cfdisk, fdisk and mkfs.vfat with a removable
device. I'd like to be wrong.
--
Brian.
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