Ahoj, it seems, that there can good idea to provide separate ML for testing users. Dňa Mon, 21 Jul 2014 21:13:26 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> napísal: > On 7/21/14, Slavko <linux@slavino.sk> wrote: > > > > Dňa Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:42:22 +1000 Zenaan Harkness > > <zen@freedbms.net> napísal: > > > So I suggested he stick to Debian stable. > > Test reports of failures are good. But failures often ends in frustration and frustrated users can provide affected reports, which can be written in bad manner bud with good base (what can be my case too). > Sometimes there are big changes (libc5->libc6, some > kernels I think in years past, one or two big X11 updates) > and these big changes mean that debian "testing" is > going to be less easy for people - if they don't have time, > fine, but how is complaining useful? I want to point, that with new kernels, the old one is keep in computer and Debian provides nice way to boot old kernel, if something goes wrong with new one. If i properly understand, after installing systemd-sysv, there is no simple way to boot by sysv. > "testing" is expected to be more stable that "unstable", > but this is sometimes not the case. Of course, you are right. I remember times, when any testing update i did run with expectation of the problems. I always did updates in Saturday to have enough time to solve problems - now are problems only (really) sometime and this points to good DD a DM job. > But general complaints are not useful, they don't help us > users (or developers) to improve testing/unstable distro. One question: Are you mean, that if someone don't know the solution, then this one cannot to point, that something is wrong? + sharing negative results can be contributing too, because others can avoid them + sharing frustration can be contributing too, because developers äar package maintainers) can see, that they are doing something in bad manner (i mean no frustration from change itself) And, please, don forget, that contribution is not only about coding (to write code), but e.g.: + maintain packages + filling bugreports (as you point somewhere) + writing documentation (IMO reserved for native English speakers) + translating + etc But all of these (as you surely know) need working machine (system). Resolving problems with system are (most of) testers able after less or more time, but resolving these problems is breaking them from their contribution. As i pointed above (and early with CUPS), for me it seems, that there are things, which are not considered with all consequences, with all details. I am able to wait and i understand, that any (big) change goes with problems. But i take systemd-shim as example: some weeks before i was happy, that there si alternative, which allow me to be through transition time without needing to search software alternatives or solving problems (until things will be more stable). But this is dropped now. But (again) it seems, that there will be alternative (after transition to testing). Then tell me, is this alternative intended to be in next stable, or it is only as honey for today users and will be dropped after some other days? These changes now seems as not coordinated for me (but it can be only missed communication), it seems as the developers don't know what is expected status at end of transition. Beware please, the systemd as default init system is not end status - i consider any init system as tool only - as end status i consider something as: + will there simple way to change init system? + will there way to run userspace software without depend on particular init system (i mean some Gnome and perhaps other)? + will there (practically) only systemd opinion and my all will be forced to use Gnome3? (the first doesn't need to be bad, but second one...) In our language (sk) we have the a idiom "Hurá systém", which i am not able to translate - roughly translated it is "hooray method". With this "method" i encounter with Ubuntu (contrib) some years ago, when i used it for LTSP server (and then dropped it) and now seems, that this "method" is going to Debian. BTW, i tried systemd first time now (holded v204) by altering the kernel params - all seems to work out of box, except suspend in XFCE. After small research it seems, that xfce4-power-manager update is waiting. It is no problem to wait (after a lot of years on testing i know, that patience is sometime needed). But there is a point - i reboot to old sysv and can wait to xfce's update and then test it again, because this functionality is "must have" for me. Sure, i found the sysctl suspend command, but machine don't resume properly (the nvidia driver?), then my waiting can be longer. But point of matter is, that i can revert to working state and wait with working machine and then continue to work, because testing the testing is not my only one job ;-) regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk
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