Re: End of hypocrisy ?

[Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>]

On 7/21/14, Slavko <linux@slavino.sk> wrote:
> Ahoj,
>
> Dňa Mon, 21 Jul 2014 18:42:22 +1000 Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
> napísal:
>
>> Rather than being so general, how about you own up to
>> what it is _you_ are trying to achieve with _your_ debian
>> install, and then your _specific_ problems might be
>> able to be addressed.
>>
>> Sounds like a more useful use of _our_ time!
>
> And what to apply this to self?

Fair point.

> I share the frustration of the original poster. I see the debian
> developer's work as not enough professional, and it is similar to
> mobbing due lack of information.
>
> From my point of view: The developers ignores the community around
> testing (which are testers of the next stable release). IMO, changing
> init system (in this case) is big change, which comes with a lot of
> problems (sometime by misunderstanding, sometime by lack of knowledge,
> don't matter because problems are here) and nobody take time to explain
> users what is, what is prepared and what is consequence (what will be)
> of these changes - then they (DD) are wasting our time, not the
> frustrated users!

These may well be reasonable and fair points.

But I take exception with complaint of OP "it's so bad"
followed by "I don't have time to contribute to testing".

So I suggested he stick to Debian stable.

Test reports of failures are good.

If he's too busy to spend time helping with debian-testing,
ok, of course everybody here accepts that.
Sometimes there are big changes (libc5->libc6, some
kernels I think in years past, one or two big X11 updates)
and these big changes mean that debian "testing" is
going to be less easy for people - if they don't have time,
fine, but how is complaining useful?

> While there is no one from DD and DM to take some time and explain
> direction – tell, systemd will be default is not enough for those, who
> are not familiar with systemd – then there will be frustration. And hold
> own frustration is not good. Perhaps is time to fill the BTS with a lot
> of new bugreports (always the new one) - to developers can share this
> frustration and perhaps they let know, that there is something missing
> from their side.

Helping each other on debian-user is good. Of course!

Complaining is not useful - this is all I am saying!


> Have you read, what you are wrote? How one can reserch the solution if
> computer won't boot (or need my all to have more computers to it)? How
> useful is take research, when after some days (weeks) all is changed?
> What is today in testing (with systemd) is different than yesterday and
> both are different than tomorrow status.

"testing" is expected to be more stable that "unstable",
but this is sometimes not the case.

In every case, if you don't have time for situations like
big changes in core distro software, then "stable" is for you.

A complain that highlights a problem for some people is good.

But general complaints are not useful, they don't help us
users (or developers) to improve testing/unstable distro.


> There are more unanswered questions. Are the changes reversible, if
> something goes wrong? Have i opinion to choose init system at boot?
> Is (will be) the systemd default or only one opinion?
> It is not about testing provided solution, it is about testing of the
> user's patience.

All the experiments are useful, the learning is necessary,
we do have to fix our problems/ report the bugs.

All of this is part of what we must do. For some it's easier,
for some not so easy.

But for some, it's an opportunity to "bitch and moan" in
general ways (not specific), and, let me say it again:

 Complaining is almost never constructively useful.


> I have only one word: horrible!
>
> (more precise, i have more words, but they are self censured).

:)

Cheers
Zenaan