On 10/21/2013 5:40 PM, berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:
Le 21.10.2013 22:23, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :On 10/21/2013 3:49 PM, berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:Le 19.10.2013 04:48, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :On 10/18/2013 7:33 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:Le 18.10.2013 17:50, Jerry Stuckle a écrit :And, again, just a guess, but I'm guessing the huge percentage of programmers these days are writing .NET code on vanilla Windows machines (not that I like it, but it does seem to be a fact of life). A lot of people also seem to be writing stored SQL procedures to run on MS SQL.Bad guess. .NET is way down the list of popularity (much to Microsoft's chagrin). COBOL is still number 1; C/C++ still way surpass .NET. And MSSQL is well behind MySQL in the number of installations (I think Oracle is still #1 with DB2 #2).I wonder where did you had those numbers? Usually, in various studies, COBOL is not even in the 5 firsts. I do not say that those studies are pertinent, they are obviously not, since their methods always shows problems. But, it does not means that they are completely wrong, and I mostly use them as very vague indicators. So, I would like were you had your indicators, I may find that interesting for various reasons.Yeah. I kind of quesiton those numbers as well.As I said - Parks Associates - a well known and respected research firm.The sources I tend to check: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.htmlThis one is quite funny, I know it. That's not the only one I know, of course, but it is the quoted one when someone wants to troll a bit about languages popularity.Try well-respected research firms.Did not I said funny? Does funny means the same as serious?
Yes, I understand. Sorry I wasn't clear - I wasn't speaking to you personally, but in general.
http://langpop.com/ both have C and Java shooting it out for top spot http://trendyskills.com/ (analysis of job postings) has JavaScript, Java, and C# battling it out COBOL is in the noise.Do you really think PC job boards are a good indication of what languages are most used?Most used? No. Most used to create new stuff and maintain old ones? Yes. You need people to maintain and create softwares, and you can find people with job boards. In fact, job boards can give a partial image of what is needed, in current real world. Partial, of course. But there is no way to have an exact and complete image.Yea, right. How many programming jobs do you see from major companies like IBM, Bank of America, United Parcel Service or any other major company with lots of programmers? The answer is - NONE. Yet they all have huge numbers of programmers.Do biggest companies have more programmers together than all other ones?
They have a lot more programmers than you see on any of the job boards. In fact, I would bet just the U.S. Government has more programmers than you see jobs being advertised on the boards.
And these jobs are basically long-term jobs; it's not at all unusual for someone to be at the same company for 10-30 years. Looking at those job boards, the vast majority are temporary. From those boards, a successful programmer (generally meaning "cheap") can do 10-50 "jobs" a year.
And yes, there is a way to have at least a *more* exact and complete image. You hire a research firm which knows what it is doing to survey the world.Results means nothing, when you do not know how they determine them. That's why I said tiobe is a funny one, because I know how they are doing to measure stuff, and it makes me laugh. But it allows, in conjunction with others, to measure a vague tendency. That's the problem with statistics: the numbers themselves on a given time are just useless. But combining them with other ones from different sources and moments, and you can have a vague vision of tendencies. More or less precise depending on the methods, of course.
Like any good research firm, Parks Associates always documents its methodology in determining it results. That's one reason they are well respected. Another reason is those methodologies are valid.
I don't have the methodology used for this particular report (I just got excerpts - the entire report was like $3200US). But I trust them because major businesses trust them.
COBOL is still used, but tend to disappear, you can like it or not. I spoke with 2 persons which were able to give me reports that COBOL was still used: a friend from my studies that I have met anew last year in train, and a teacher which was doing... well, good question? But at least it allowed me to see some real COBOL code for the first time. I do not mean that I have met a lot of programmers, but clearly, COBOL is not something which will last for decades.Not according to REAL research. COBOL is still very heavily used; in large finance, it's about the only language used other than web sites.I am sorry to have to say that, but I see that you often use unverifiable sources. But it can't be helped I guess.
I'm sorry you can't get the Parks Associates report. I admit it is expensive, but it is available. However, I also see that Curt posted a report from the Gartner group (another respected research firm) later in this thread. It's old, but I'll bet the figures haven't changed much.
However, do not worry for it: being #20 or better means it is a widely used language.Like it or not, it is #1. But you refuse to acknowledge the truth. You'd rather rely on job board listings. Such is the fate of those unwilling to learn.Interesting. For someone unwilling to learn, I think I admitted some of my errors in that discussion. The problem is that I do not remember you providing something we can check. While I am at it, how old is the last research they made? Such complete researches must take a lot of time and money, surely they do not make them on regular a basis.
I got the excerpt late last year or early this year. So I suspect it was finished mid-2012.
No, they don't do it every year, but they do do it on a regular basis. I don't know how often this particular report is done; some they do annually or maybe even semi-annually; others maybe only once every 5 years or so. I'm not in on their schedule, unfortunately.
Jerry