Re: Using Ubuntu when I'm used to Debian.
On 5 Apr 2006, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 13:16, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On 4 Apr 2006, Hal Vaughan wrote:
>>> I never said they were hostile toward me. And that is not what
>>> I've seen in terms of complaints. It's usually along the lines of
>>> "Why can't they edit text files, like we do?" I have yet to see
>>> someone complain that the problem with a gui or easy-to-use config
>>> program is that it creates problems (other than Webmin).
>>
>> Let me put it this way: I volunteer my time to scratch an itch,
>> usually something that I need for myself. I also am concerned with
>> code complexity, ease of maintenance as well as ease of use, and
>> ease of use vs ease of learning.
>
> Then, by your own admission, you're not volunteering your time. You
> are writing a program YOU need. The time you put in is to create
> what YOU need, not what others need. (Your comments farther down
> support this even more.) You are contributing code and a project,
> but not your time, since you've just made it clear what time you
> spend is on making what you need.
Well, yes. I am indeed writing code for theprime suer: me. And
since I can't do it all by myself, I have joined with other
individuals in a common cause to help write an OS that works like I
want it to.
I am sharing this with others, partially since it gathers
feedback and effort that makes my OS better.
If you believe in pure altruism, rather than enlighteneed self
interest, please picture me backing away warily saying "Nice
person. Nice, Nice Person".
> That's like a man that lives in a cabin on the far side of a stream
> from the local town. He builds a bridge so he can get to the town
> and then walks into town and boasts to everyone, "See that bridge?
> I built it for you. I spent my money on the materials and put in MY
> time for your good. You can use that bridge now because of me."
> All the while, his goal was a bridge for himself, which is apparent
> because the bridge is narrow enough for only one person, doesn't
> have hand rails, and is only strong enough for one person at a time.
> Yet he still crows like a rooster that he built it for the town.
If you do not like the reasons I produce Debian, you can stop
using my packages -- or the software. No one is making you walk on
the bloody bridge. Get wet in the stream, or go build your own.
> True, the town can use it, but only because he hasn't put up a toll
> gate or locked it. The differences here are that code does not wear
> down like a bridge and that it takes a bit of effort to release the
> project by either putting it on your own site or one like Source
> Forge.
Err, building bridges, I am sure, also takes effort. I have no
idea where you are going with this.
>> When someone asks for a feature I don't think adds enough to be
>> worth the time, I probably won't do it -- though well formulated
>> patches are still likely to be accepted.
>
> Just like the man with the bridge. He builds what he wants, and
> does not worry about what others need. There's nothing wrong with
> that, but don't tell people you're volunteering your time when all
> you're doing is writing the code you want in the first place.
Quite so. My time, and my effort: if it improves the OS for
me, or I think it gathers enough others who can use it, I'll
consider spending time.
>>> I think you've completely mistaken my point about suggestions, and
>>> just assumed I was taking it personally. My point is that
>>> whenever an easier way comes out, or someone suggests something
>>> easier, there is usually hostility from some groups. It's the "it
>>> was good enough for my grandfather, it's good enough for me"
>>> attitude. It's also the, "It's hard, it takes a geek to
>>> understand, and that's the way it should be" attitude, as opposed
>>> to, "Well, it's different, it's not my way, but it works for those
>>> that don't have time to learn everything about Linux but want to
>>> use it."
>>
>> I detect a great deal of hostility in the preceding
>> paragraph.
>
> Maybe, but I think some of the hostility you detect is your own
> toward the idea of contributing to the common good by putting in a
> little more effort than what one needs for his own good.
Ah. Purely altruistic expenditure of energy. Well, that
depends on how it makes me feel -- and how much time I have.
>> As an author/maintainer, the package is working well
>> enough for me. If there is a feature request, someone has to
>> convince me of the ROI of time for me to consider doing it. If you
>> really really need the feature, and demand I implment this, send me
>> email off line to ask for my consulting rates.
>
> And that proves even more that you are not volunteering your time
> unless you get something for it. That's not volunteering.
> Volunteering is giving without expecting a ROI.
>
>> If you think this is hostile, I am sorry, but you are not
>> paying me well enough to sugar coat my communication.
>
> What a mercenary. And you call yourself a volunteer?
Well, because of my efforts, and others people who may also be
like minded, you have this OS. If you don't like it, lump it.
> I have contributed to FOSS projects, including doing more work to
> make something friendlier than I needed it to make sure it was
> actually of use to others. I have also released simple programs
> that I've created that I know others can use. There are also times
> I've run into troubles that didn't make sense and made sure I took
> time to write up and document the solution so others have it
> available when it comes up. I've gotten responses and help requests
> on FOSS work, my small programs, and on solutions I've posted. I
> answer them. I work with the people asking for help. If I have the
> time and people need a feature I can add, I do it.
I am sooooo happy for you.
> So, yes, I know what volunteering is like and I know what it
> requires. But then again, I don't just write what I need, put it
> out there and say that the time I spent on it was volunteering.
I put some code out there. I make things work better for my
packages -- and you, my friend, are reaping the benefits of that
labour. Calling me names just helps me place you in my own
estimation.
manoj
--
I've finally figured out why airports make you walk so far out to get
to your plane. It's their way of giving your luggage a head start.
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.golden-gryphon.com/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
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