Re: Ubunto vs. Debian
On Monday 18 July 2005 10:27 pm, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > People do things like that because they have the illusion they can
> > control others. It's a nasty habit, and it says more negative about the
> > person doing it than the person they are jumping on.
>
> No. It's called letting people know they're being rude. Don't like
> the list guidelines, don't post. That simple.
It's called letting them know they're being rude by being rude in return.
There are polite ways to tell people things and curt and rude ways to say the
same thing. Out of the "you're being rude", or RTFM messages, I've seen
maybe 1 in 20 showing any degree of courtesy.
It's that simple.
> > While it allows some people to
> > get an ego-boost, it is at the cost of Linux and open source overall.
>
> Doubt it. When people are able to converse intelligently with the
> locals they get more benefit. Or, to put it another way, want answers, ask
> properly formatted questions. Want to be ignored, be a prick.
I am *not* trying to call you a prick, or make any slur, obvious, or subtle,
so please don't take this as an attempt to call you names. I know you have
helped a lot of people here, so I'm not trying to take a potshot at you.
However -- rudeness is in perception, and for someone who comes into a group
and is greeted with "do it this way", that is rude. For those in the group
that see someone come in and not read rules, the reverse is true. So I'm
saying that when looked at from the other point of view, perhaps the behavior
you support is rude.
Now I KNOW there are rules sent to people, but there's more to it than that.
I'm on a support list (got in it while helping a friend with a problem),
where people come in and feel absolutely lost. When they come in to start
asking questions there, they are emotionally drained. There are very
specific directions sent to people when they join, and hardly anyone follows
them. "Before posting to this list" instructions are becoming like a EULA,
or the "50% OFF SALE" sign in stores. People should read it, but they are so
overloaded in information, so overwhelmed with instructions from every piece
of software, every users group, and everything else.
People don't "see" such instructions anymore. They've seen so many of them,
they don't mean anything any more. That doesn't mean they shouldn't read
them, it's just the facts -- the way things are, the way the human brain
works. So we can deal with the truth the way it is, or continue to try to
control others and make them do things we want them to do instead of deal
with reality the way it is.
And that means accepting that many people won't read the rules until told --
so it is good to tell them, however, and this is why I spoke up, I have
hardly ever seen a polite RTFM message. About 90-95% of the ones I've seen
are condescending -- and that just isn't necessary.
For example, someone just sent a message with 1 word -- "Help". From there,
we've seen the Beatles song reposted, line by excruciating line. It didn't
occur to anyone that this post might be from a 100% clueless newbie who
wasn't even clear how mailing lists work. Maybe they've spent their life in
the Windows world, where one calls a phone number for help. Not one person
here even bothered to say, "Okay, just what kind of help do you need? Tell
us as much as possible about your problem. While I think most of us agree
that is unlikely, and it was a troll or probably a serious PEBKAC error, it
says a lot about this group that people would rather turn it into a joke than
take the time to see if, even on the off chance, someone might need help.
(And, to answer the obvious someone will point out -- by the time I saw that
post, I had already seen some comments in this thread, and stayed out
intentionally to see how it would play out.)
> > Such behavior does not reflect well on Debian, does not reflect well on
> > Linux, nor on FOSS, and it especially does not reflect well on the
> > nit-picker him/herself, since it shows that they are more concerned with
> > political correctness then in providing help.
>
> It also reflects poorly on the person who couldn't be bothered to take
> the time to see how the locals do things. Isn't that something that
> Americans are always blasted about in good ol' Europe? Going over
> expecting everyone to speak English and when people don't... speaking
> slower and louder as if somehow volume is going to impart the capability to
> understand a foriegn language?
Do you have some issue with this, or something? I don't see that this has
anything to do with the topic, so I'm not clear why you brought it up.
Hal
Reply to: