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Re: uol.com.br and petsupermarket

ke, 2006-03-15 kello 05:48 +1100, Anand Kumria kirjoitti:
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2006 at 03:48:58PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> > Kicking people off Debian lists without proper reason is really, really
> > bad for the project. 
> So an uncooperative ISP isn't a valid reason, in your book?

That is correct, at least this early in the process. Before this step, I
would have liked to see, say, a message to debian-announce asking
uol.com.br customers for help. Or debian-news. Or each of the mailing
lists that have the problematic subscriber. Also, warning subscribers
from uol.com.br that this unsubscription might happen, well in advance,
so that they can switch to another address, would in my opinion have
been prudent.

> There were < 100 subscribers from uol.com.br and that ISPs challenge /
> response mechanism is affecting (at least) > 5000 people.

First, the hurt of even one innocent person being kicked out is, again
in my opinion, bigger than the pain from having to delete autoresponses.

Second, I doubt that there are over five thousand posters on the lists
in question. I could be wrong, of course.

> > Much worse than a single autoresponse message that
> > is easy to filter off, until it can be stopped.
> I imagine spammers say this to themselves at night "It's only one more
> message. They can filter it out." 

Thanks, I enjoy being compared to spammers.

I realize and appreciate that Debian listmasters have put in a lot of
effort to deal with this situation, and that it is highly frustrating
for everyone. 

I don't know exactly what all you've done, so I'm hesitant to offer
suggestions, but in the interest of reducing pain for all parties,
here's a couple of ideas:

* The bounce test you sent in December did not seem to use VERP, that
is, sending the test message so that the Return-Path and From headers
are both specific to the recipient. Have you tried that? (I am guessing
here that the bounce test didn't work because the automatic response
didn't have any indication which message it was a response to. VERPs are
one way of doing that.)

* Ask someone in Brazil to call up the petsupermarket people on the
phone and see who there is interested in Debian and if they could please
not forward their Debian list subscriptions to uol.com.br?

* Do a big "spring/fall cleanup" and unsubscribe *everyone*, with due
advance notice of course. The linux-kernel list did that at least once,
many years ago. This is different from kicking off only uol.com.br
subscribers, since it will get rid of the offending address (and also
any other people who are too lazy to unsubscribe, of course). Admittedly
it is highly radical. (When people re-subscribe, keep time stamps of
when they do that, to correlate with if the problem still comes back.)

Choose wisely, choose often.

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