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Re: which serious bugs exactly? (Re: if you care about debian on powerpc, please react ...)

On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 10:37:40AM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
> Hi,
> On Saturday 25 November 2006 23:08, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Thank you for this, why could you not at least leave me alone ?
> Because you spread FUD about the debian-powerpc port and claim it's so broken 
> it needs to be removed from etch?!

And you do not ? More than it, you responded to my constructive and positive
oriented wiki page :


With a page full of hatefulness, and your mail to debian-boot prior was also
of this kind, and the current exchange also to some degree.

I am asking that this situation be solved, that we can all work together,
while people like you, or Steve, or Geert, only want me completely destroyed
and leaving. At least this is how i interpret how you respond to this issue.

But i also notice that you are probably not proud of your actions in this, and
you removed your hateful wiki page.

> > joeyh accused me of delaying single-handledly the release a full week for a
> > very minor typo.
> This might be^w^wis unfortunate, that a single typo at the wrong place and 
> time can delay a release by a week, but if it's like this, then it is like 

It cannot, and it was diffamation. At worst it would have delayed the release
by a day. And there where various other issues, and the release was finally
delayed at least a couple of weeks or even month, for other reasons.

Who is spreading FUD now ? 

> this. And if you don't understand this, maybe you should not be in the 
> position to make such typos and cause such delays?

Yeah, right. Some guys make false claims, and thus i should no more work on
the d-i powerpc port, and be put in a humiliating position.

> > > For the sake of the users of the powerpc-port I'll quote here what I
> > > replied to your mail to debian-release on this wednesday about the same
> > > issue.
> > I saw now such thing, assuredly you forgot to CC me, right ?
> No. I didn't cc: you on purpose, because that's how the code of conduct on 
> debian mailing lists is. If a person doesn't explicitly request a cc: you 

Yeah, i should have asked for a CC:, as i don't follow debian-release.

> don't cc: that person. It's commonly considered unpolite to cc: people on 
> mailinglists and this policy is written down. And you have been told this 
> many times.

Well, seriously, i have seen as much opinions in favour and against of this
inside debian, but that is another debate.

> > Yeah, this is your accusation. But still, frans and you and others have
> > also killed my motivation, but i still continue to work on debian, because
> > i care for the users. When was your last contribution ?
> I'm perfectly aware that you're motivation is also hurt. But you are not the 
> only one in this world.

No, but i am the only one inside the d-i team who is hurt in this way, not
only in motivation, but in spirit and soul, and who is continuously the target
of agression and unfair handling since over 6 month. Well, maybe even more by

I am also the only one to have tried to make advances, to ask for

You know, this situation is sick, how could you not have noticed it, where
frans is continuously diminishing my contribution and bashing on me, but at
the same time judge of my good behaviour. How could anyone ever imagine that
this would any day solve the issue, where one party is so humiliated, and in
big part unfairly so.

Please read : 


And see the two cases of possible work flow that i show, and ask yourself
which of them is the most able to smooth things and make them become better,
and this mess to become a thing of the past ? 

> Last weekend I created 
> http://developer.skolelinux.no/~holger/archivestatus/needs_love.html and my 
> primary motivation for this was to bring the debian-edu-powerpc port into 
> shape. 

Nice, but beside the point. In particular, i wonder where you where, when at
the begining of this year, i had less time to give to debian, and asked for
help ? Or where where you while i was at my mothers death bed and not really
in mind of doing debian work, let alone having the hardware for it, and the
powerpc port deteriorated considerably ? Where were you when the
debian-powerpc folk asked for questions and help during that time, and since
then, i didn't see you responding there ? Where were you when i forwarded a
d-i related request or problem from debian-powerpc to debian-boot ? If i
remember well, nobody ever followed up on this.

> > Please go ahead, and count my patches and commits. I number 20-30 of them
> > since june. What have you done in this whole last year for powerpc ?
> I'm perfectly aware that you contributed more code for powerpc than I. But 
> contributing code is not the only thing that counts.

And what counts ? As far as i know, i am marginalized because i was not
respectful enough to frans. You never discussed the issue with me, never told
me what was bad, i never saw an objective mail from frans, never. I was not
even told my commit access was removed, i had to find out about it when after
a month or so of inactivity i started working on bugs i knew nobody else was
interested, and discovered how the powerpc d-i port had been completely
abandoned. Neither you, nor Frans, nor Colin, nor Geert, really stood up and
took over the port leadership, despite me wishing Colin luck and pointing out
all the problems that where still open. Apart from those i myself closed, most
of these issues are still there today. Since late marsch, and at least the
first months and a half, i did leave and didn't participate in discussions,
and repeteadly afterward there where huge stretches of time where you have
nothing to reproach to me.

> > > If you would have worked (as I suggested to you in June (or July?) this
> > > year)
> > And i did so.
> No. You started to bash and rant and attack people on various lists and 
> demanded your commit rights back.

Indeed. They where unlawfully taken away, Frans was deliberately provoking me
since summer 2005 or so, he told me so, sure in order to "make me understand
what it is to be bashed", but still. He also deliberately ignored my plead for
help, when on that day of marsch the 27th, i asked him to stop bashing me
since i was in very serious personal distress.

Up to now, i challenge you to find a single justification for having taken the
commit access away. I had not a single time misused the commit access, and i
am the one doing the work on the powerpc d-i port.

> > > on patches and bugreports and not continuesly ranted and insulted the
> > > people who cannot work with you (which you have done on >5 lists and by
> > > writing
> > Who, as you, chose to not work with me.
> Yes. Because I don't get any work done with you but just engange in effectivly 
> useless discussions with you. So I rather do something else. Instead of 

Yeah. Useless discussions, like when i asked, pleaded you to speak to frans,
to help us get this beyond us and be a thing of the past, where i asked you to
at least help me get information on what exactly was reproached to me ? 

Oh yes, and the only reply i am getting all this time is :

  - you should admit this is entirely your fault.
  - you should be extra nice.
  - you should wait a long time.
  - i don't want to speak about this now.
  - i don't want to hear about you anymore.

> writing this email, I could have contributed my research about the memory 
> requirements for d-i on powerpc for the installation manual for example. 

Indeed. But then, you could have done so also instead of writing that hateful
wiki page, or the other hateful mail you wrote two weeks ago, but no, you
thought it was more important to continue hitting me until i broke, right ? 

> Instead of doing so I write this email, which I sadly believe (been there, 
> done that, too often) is a waste of time.

Yeah, exact. NEVER, you hear me *NEVER*, have i gotten any constructive
response to my many efforts at conciliation, not out of you, not out of frans,
not out of anyone directly involved in this mess. And worse, the DPL and Steve
Mcyntire, both also did NEVER give even any hint that there was a real chance
for this getting better.

> That I still write this email has two reasons: I still have empathy for you, I 

Thanks, but i hope you also understand how those mails and wiki page you wrote
affected me. I know you may have been angry when you wrote it, as i was angry
when i wrote many of those mail i am reproached. 

But at least i recognize that, and i *NEVER* *EVER* got any sign of regret or
understanding out of frans and those other unnamed guys.

> would be very happy if you would understand that this whole situation is not 
> about you as a person, even though your current and past behaviors are (IMO) 

Ah, no ? It is not about me as person ? What is it then ? Nobody ever told me
what the problem was. The most i got was the DPL telling me that the
problem was that frans felt i didn't respect him enough.

> the main reason the situation is like it is. And I do care about powerpc and 
> it's users. So I see a need to correct your misinformations.

You need to bash me, and destroy any credibility i still have left after this
huge mess. Do you realize what it does ? Do you realize how useful it is to
complain about me, and then when i am trying to work in a way of bettering, to
get again backstabbed by ever newer humiliation and discreditation ? 

> > Since then, my upload of the fan control patch was reverted without
> > mention, after it had rested for a full 29 days in the BTS without a single
> > comment.
> The patch is in svn now. 

Sure it is. In the meantime i passed many weeks working on d-i on the Xserve,
installed a meter or so from my head, and with fans going in full gear. Did
you ever hear the 9+ fans going in full gear on a G5 powermac? Or do you think
i was just joking when i spoke repeteadly of "aircraft level noise" ? Or maybe
you didn't see the various reports of powerpc users who complained about the
same issue on debian-powerpc ?

> And the patch rested in svn, because we're preparing a release (candidate) and 

Yes, and now. 

I admit that it was normal not to upload the package during the rc1
preparation, but at least the patch could have been committed. Not comitting
the patch means more chance for me to mess up my whole d-i svn checkout, more
chances to lose patch and work, as already happened to me twice, and more work
for me to follow the issue, and to wonder what happened, and not being able to
ask frans, because he would then feel i am pushing, and postpone the work on
the patch even longer.

Also, frans made an upload a few days before my upload, he knew, because i
told him, how painful that bug was, he *NEVER EVEN COMMENTED ON THE BUG REPORT

> shortly before releasing such a thing, the packages are uploading (with all 
> changes from svn) to include new translations for example. This is why your 
> patch rested in the BTS, to be included after the RC1 release as it has been 
> done now.

Indeed, but this doesn't explain what happened in the two weeks or so
following the RC1 release, nor does it explain why he didn't include that
patch in the 1.42 upload, nor does it explain why he didn't commit the patch
to the svn, so others could investigate it.

I know it is painful for him or others to have to do these kind of work, but
then, why do they insist in keeping it going ? I really can't understand that.

> And really, loud fans are an issue, but they don't make the installer 

Yeah, right. Never heard of noise-related hear-damage ? I got a headache from
working on the fix, and it woke my children or otherwise disturbed them. 

They are not simply a bit loud, they are EXTREMELY LOUD, as you would know if
you had cared following the debian-powerpc mailing list, and read the users
complaining, as i did.

> completly usuable (play some louder music during the 30mins of installations, 
> whatever) for the minority of powerpc users with such a hardware, while there 
> is a risk of breaking the whole powerpc port by commiting last-minute 
> changes.

Again, the patch was there for 29 days, the problem i have was that a full
week after the RC1 release, it was still not commented on or commited, and
that frans had done an upload a couple of days before.

And if you are a fan of loud music, as i know you are, and probably have
already lost some of your hearing, you should also respect others which are
not in this case, and realize that huge noise levels represent a health

> I appreciate a conservative release policy for the sake of all users.

Indeed, but again, this is plain FUD, as the events in questions happened more
than a week after the RC1 release.

> > currently shiping powerpc hardware are :
> >
> >   IBM pseries : not really supported, patch sitting without comment since
> >   months, early work lost because of svn commit conflicts.
> raise the bug severity? which bug#, btw?

  Outstanding bugs -- Normal bugs; Patch Available (1 bug)
  #394970: finish-install: [powerpc64] Add support for IBM serial consoles
  (hvc and hvsi)
  Package: finish-install (finish-install 2.4); Reported by: Sven Luther
  <luther@debian.org>; Tags: patch; 33 days old

It is commited to svn since i complained loudly at the begining of the week,
but not yet uploaded.

Also those boxes are usually server hardware, the ability to test them in d-i
and fix them is a very small window, and then a second chance usually happen a
couple of months/years later.

> >   Genesi Efika : upcoming product, patches not ready for 2.6.18, will not
> > be supported in etch.
> debian never supported non-available hardware so far, and upcoming products 
> are often delayed or changed. And this machine is not exacly currently 
> shipping... 

It is currently shipping, well, since last week at least. There will probably
be many tens given away to interested users who have a nice software project,
like for the pegasos which i managed to get donated to you, even after the
program normally had ended.

> And you're in the kernel team and have commit rights there, so you can make 
> the patches ready for 2.6.18...

Nope. They depend on too much post-2.6.18, it would not be reasonable to
backport them. 2.6.19 will have backports, and 2.6.20 will have full support

> >   Mercury 1U G5 servers : never saw one of those, the linux/powerpc
> > upstream guys have no idea how it works, may work identical to IBM pseries,
> > or not, but in any case, i wouldn't mention them as supported.
> Right. Nor would I. So what, exactly?

Well, i am doing an exhaustive listing of currently shiping new powerpc

> >   Sony PS3 : no hardware available to us, not supported right now.
> Right. So what?
> >   assorted powerpc embededed hardware: not supported by debian as is.
> So let's drop the powerpc port??

Well, you said it is all green, there are at least two missing criterias : no
supported new hardware, and no supported d-i.


Sven Luther

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