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Re: Welcome Rahul (was Re: New debian package maintainers - Sudeesh and Sagar)

To: Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org>, debian-dug-in@lists.debian.org
From: Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk>
Subject: Re: Welcome Rahul (was Re: New debian package maintainers - Sudeesh and Sagar)

Quoting Pirate Praveen (2016-02-11 16:02:37)
> On Thursday 11 February 2016 08:12 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>> As for IRC vs XMPP, mobile support for IRC can't match that of XMPP.
>> True, but technical features are far less important than community.
>>> You cannot force people to use a computer all the time.
>> I am not forcing anyone to do anything here, only encouraging - 
>> insistingly - to join existing community, not fork a new one.
> And by that you are excluding the new people that want to join by 
> raising the bar higher (I think IRC has a higher barrier to entry than 
> XMPP on mobile for folks who are familiar with WhatsApp adn Telegram 
> groups)

We are all excluding, including you: Only those (not yet existing, I 
believe) who *bridge* easier-to-use XMPP with 
where-existing-developers-are IRC are not excluding!

>>> We want to use and promote it for everyday use and being online on 
>>> Debian India via XMPP is much more easier than adding another layer 
>>> of IRC.
>> You confuse matters here: It is *not* easier to setup decentralized 
>> XMPP servers - I believe your current MUC runs on a single host which 
>> is *less* decentralized than the "bad" irc.
> We can move servers around easily, if required,

Huh?  All users currently hardcode the hostname of the MUC.  How to 
"easily move" that?

> and client accounts are decentralized.

True, but pretty irrelevant in the context of public shared chatrooms 
(a.k.a. MUC in XMPP-speak).

>> True, offline-buffering can be offered server-side for XMPP and not 
>> for irc - which brings a slight benefit, but with that big loss of 
>> needing the community to shift over.
> It gives a familiar environment to newbies used to WhatsApp and 
> Telegram kind of groups (though we will need to polish xmpp muc).

Seems your comment here is unrelated to what you quote right above.

>>> Most of the discussions are mentoring newbies and those are already 
>>> documented.
>> So discussions like "how to best setup an APT proxy?" and "how to 
>> build in clean environment?" are fine to discuss in a vacuum?  Please 
>> elaborate!
> They do have to join the mailing lists and they are directed to debian 
> wiki and documentation.
> I don't think the newbies will be stuck on XMPP forever, they will 
> have to interact with the community anyway and they will learn to use 
> whatever tools required once they grow up in the community.
> But insisting on IRC when a better medium exist is in my opinion 
> elitist. We don't care for you, if you don't use our tools is not a 
> good thing to say to newbies.
> We are always a difficult community for newbies to join and our 
> efforts are only to make that easier. If we do realize the cons 
> outweigh the pros, we'll consider abandoning it.

Thanks for elaborating.

Regarding our community being difficult for newbies, I believe it is the 
wrong approach to protect newbies from us: Let's improve by working 
together most possible (i.e. not only lists and wiki, but realtime chat 

Regarding our choice of tools being "elitist", I believe the proper 
solution to that is to bridge, not fork!

 - Jonas

 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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