Re: Be nice to your fellow Debian colleagues
On Thu, Jan 02, 2020 at 04:51:14AM +1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 2/1/20 4:19 am, John Hasler wrote:
> > andrew.mcglashan wrote:
> >> ...it is very limited to a small group of Debian users known
> >> collectively as DDs...
> >
> > It is limited to the people who actually do the work. Why should
> > the fact that you chose to download, install, and use some software
> > that someone wrote and generously made available to you for free
> > give you any right to participate in their decisions as to what to
> > do next.
> >
> > I'm not happy with some of the choices Debian has made recently but
> > my opinion about such things became irrelevant when I resigned from
> > the project. Ranting about them here and indignantly accusing the
> > DDs of ignoring me would be ridiculous.
>
> You simplify things too much and therefore cheapen the project and
> it's wide ranging participants (not just DDs, but also including DDs)
> quite considerably.
>
It is quite the opposite, really. The Debian project has a consensus
building mechanism which has evolved over more than 25 years. Is it
perfect? No. However, it is quite a bit more effective* than any
similar process of which I am aware or with which I have been involved.
* Depending on the definition of "effective", to be sure. The Apache
Software Foundation, the Gnome Foundateion, and the Eclipse
Foundation, just to name a few examples, have rather different process
than Debian and there are certainly those who would praise the
effectiveness of each project's processes compared to the processes of
the other projects.
My thought is that Debian's process is the most democratic and that,
given the size of the project, it has so far scaled well with the
project. We are not well organized for a mechanism based more on
representation of constituencies, but other projects are and such
mechanisms suit them.
> There are very different types of investments in Debian at play here;
> it isn't just "those that do the work", it is also "those that USE the
> work" that help with possible bug reports and other things that enrich
> the project.
If Debian were a commercial project and users paid for use licenses or
support contracts, then your argument would be much stronger. As it is,
the "currency" of the Debian project is contributions of various forms
(e.g., code, patches, help resolving bug reports, writing documentation,
managing web content, managing infrastructure, etc.). While every user
is appreciated, I do not consider that someone simply downloading and
using Debian adds any value. It is when that person, persons, or group
makes an effort to improve Debian that value is added.
> Advocates for Debian, of which there were many more
> before the more recent changes are also very important for the entire
> project's ongoing success well in to the future.
>
Citation, please. Note that academic peer-reviewed studies would carry
the most weight, followed by reputable journalistic work, and rantings
of individuals via mailing lists and blogs carry the least weight. You
may be experiencing the fallacious thought process that every person who
takes a negative stance or stops advocating for Debian represents a net
"loss" to the project; stated another way, it is entirely possible that
for every "loss" of an advocate that there is a corresponding "gain".
Hence why something like an academic peer-reviewed study or thorough
investigative journalistic piece would be ways of assessing the validity
of your statement and why blog articles would not.
> Debian should be so much more than what DDs alone make of it, not
> being so at any point in time affords considerable disrespect for
> others involved over time as advocates, users and even ex-DDs.
Given that the Debian Project is made up of imperfect people, the
project itself is also imperfect. That said, Point 4 of the Debian
Social Contract [0] is "Our priorities are our users and free software".
I've not been involved in Debian quite as long as some others, but
during the years which I have been involved I have found that Debian
adheres to the above stated principle quite well.
Since the Debian project has so many mechanisms outside of the GR
mechanism, the idea that Debian is not already "so much more than what
the DDs alone make of it" is rather disingenuous.
Based on your messages in this thread it is clear that you are
personally hurt by some of the decisions that the project has made.
That is unfortunate, but it does not grant you license to dismiss the
extraordinary hard work of so many people...
> Did
> Debian choose to stop being the universal Linux? If so, when? Is it
> choosing that now?
>
The Debian project has not chosen any such thing now nor in the past; I
would expect that it would not in the future. Note that it is certainly
possible to argue that any number of decisions are effectively a choice
to "stop being the universal OS"; for example, dropping official support
for previously support hardware architectures (e.g., alpha, hppa,
itanium, m68k, etc.). Those decisions were made based on a variety of
technical criteria, they likely resulted in some individuals somewhere
being upset, yet they were necessary for some reason or another.
> These days, when a successful team wins at a sporting event, it
> encompasses all the participants and appreciates them all as
> contributing, it isn't just the on field players, even the on field
> players get [and deserve] most of the glory. Teams are made up of
> players in many fields, just peruse the credits at the end of movies,
> there are shed loads of people involved, one way or another.
>
I agree 100% here. In fact, Debian does an amazing job of showing
appreciation for the entire community in numerous ways. But to use your
example of looking at the movie credits, the assistant best boy electric
grip does not get the same say (or really any say) in the creative
direction of the movie; that say is reserved for the producers,
directors, and possibly the talent. The assistant best boy electric
grip is shown appreciation by being remunerated for his efforts and by
being listed in the credits.
> Do you think that any Debian advocate or user should not be able to be
> part of Debian's success without them needing to be DDs? That would
> be a very shallow view towards anyone not "elite" enough to be a DD.
> Remember, it isn't so much against DDs, not at all, it is more about
> the greater good of Debian and from a far more wide reaching view than
> the DDs alone can have.
>
And if the Debian project were a movie production and someone wanted to
influence the direction of the project, we would say, "invest in the
production funds enough to be considered a producer and then you can
have your say." Yet, the Debian project has many ways for those who are
not DDs to influence the direction of the project. You are simply
focusing on one of the very few mechanisms which is reserved only to
DDs. Why do you ignore the other avenues available to you?
> It is neigh on impossible for everyone to have a say, but it isn't
> beyond the realms just DDs to think beyond themselves and for the
> greater good of the project.
>
I think beyond myself when it comes to decisions I make in the course of
my Debian work and every DD I know does that. To imply otherwise, as
you have done, is rather unfair. Incidentally, this is part of what
makes me think that you are personally offended by some of the recent
events and it seems that may be the cause of the lack of objectivity in
your communication.
> Would you want a project that is only "good" for 1,100 to 1,200 DDs or
> would you want what has been Debian's goal of being a universal Linux,
> good for so many more?
>
Ibid.
> Let's be positive about this and find a way to be more inclusive of
> the greater Debian population; it should be a win for everyone.
>
There are countless ways for anyone, DD or not, to influence the
direction of the Debian project. So, perhaps all that is needed is to
begin taking advantage of those ways, rather than complaining about the
one way that, for very good reason, is reserved only for DDs.
Regards,
-Roberto
[0] https://www.debian.org/social_contract
--
Roberto C. Sánchez
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