Re: libsystemd [was: Re: Is missing SysV-init support a bug?]
[2016-08-29 18:30] Russ Allbery <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> part text/plain 1918
> Dmitry Bogatov <email@example.com> writes:
> > Socket is not bad thing. Inventing daemon for no reason is complicating
> > things for no reason => bad. Thanks history, we have pid files, not
> > `libpid' to talk to `pidd'.
> Uh, the daemon in question is the init daemon? Which has been there since
> the beginning of UNIX? You kind of need that daemon. You can't do
> without it. :)
I know that pid 1 is daemon, that one must have. And this daemon, for
sake of simplicity, should just boot system.
I do not buy your argument, that since we already have daemon, lets just
put another optional functionality in it.
> PID files are an ugly hack and have *always* been an ugly hack. I cannot
> tell you the number of obnoxious edge cases I've had to deal with around
> PID files: files getting created at the wrong time, with the wrong
> ownership, in directories that aren't writable by the process and
> therefore fail, with invalid contents, or truncated, or reused for some
> other purpose and now with bizarre and undocumented syntax, or kept around
> after the host reboots and they become irrelevant, or used entirely
> unsafely because the original daemon is long-gone, the PID space has
> wrapped, and now that PID is pointing to sshd and gets happily killed by
> something that blindly trusts the PID file. They're not something anyone
> would want to use voluntarily.
I agree, that pid-files are not blessing, especially when we have
runit/daemontools/s6, which makes them unneeded.
But if I had to choose between pidfiles or linking to `libpid' to talk
with `pidd' (especially, if it is part of pid 1), I would choose
> > I would be interested to know of more selling points of libsystemd, but
> > discussion how to implement them in simple way does not belong to
> > debian-devel, but to upstream projects lists.
> I'm discussing it on debian-devel because so many of the arguments against
> systemd on the grounds of its supposed contrariness to UNIX demonstrate
> the most appalling ignorance of UNIX, and I think it's useful to talk
> about *specifics* instead of general political positions on systemd as an
> abstract Platonian ideal. We're making a free UNIX distribution. We
> should care *deeply* about the specifics; that's the best way to make good
> decisions. And we should be connoisseurs of good ideas, whatever their
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