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Re: sysvinit is still here, and here to stay for jessie (was Re: systemd is here to stay, get over it now)

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On 07/03/2014 01:40 PM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:

> Hi,
> Thorsten Glaser:

>>> Can we get over this now and start making Jessie the most awesome
>>> stable release we've ever prepared together?
>> To do that, it MUST work without systemd, if alone for upgrade 
>> scenarios.
> It must work without systemd well enough to be able to cleanly reboot
> the system from the GUI, after upgrading.
> Anything beyond that is nice-to-have, but definitely NOT required.

I, for one, would be highly displeased if a routine dist-upgrade to
testing required me to reboot to avoid having things break.

I generally dist-upgrade my primary computer to testing about once a
week, give or take, but I don't reboot it more often than once a month -
more commonly three to six months, and I'd prefer that to be longer if
possible. (And often when I do reboot, it's due to a power outage that
overwhelms my UPS.)

Yes, this means that I don't get the benefit of some of the upgraded
packages (e.g. new kernels) until I do reboot - but nothing breaks,
either. Given the inconvenience of needing to shut down everything I'm
doing (including dozens of xterms, many with running programs) to
reboot, and manually bring up what parts of it I can afterwards, I'm
entirely willing to live without those benefits in the interim.

Regardless of how I feel and what I've argued in the past about systemd
et al., I wasn't previously planning to actively avoid letting systemd
get installed on my system. However, if letting it get installed will
mean things will thereafter be broken until I reboot, I don't see much
choice in the matter; I'll have to block it from installing until I'm
ready for a *planned* reboot, which are vanishingly rare for me.

I would argue that in order for Jessie to be "the most awesome stable
release [...] ever prepared", it must work without systemd well enough
to let everything that worked before the upgrade to Jessie continue to
work equally well until the user decides to reboot - whether that's
immediately, or six months down the line. Previous releases could
successfully be used that way, after all; I've done it with at least one
of them.

- --
   The Wanderer

Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
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