Am 20.11.2012 23:14, schrieb Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez:
So much for the general rules... but exceptions ARE possible! And I just try to make a case here about how important it might be!On 20/11/12 22:55, Michael Schmitt wrote:If one likes Gnome2.x or MATE or not is a question of taste, to acknowledge that many users are just mad about Gnome3 is a fact. To offer no real sane upgrade-path for those users is... dunno how to say it in another way, it is just insane! I did invest some time with thinking about all of this including talking to some MATE folks and current squeeze-gnome-users, and again thinking and thinking... imho it must be done everything possible to try to circumvent that imho probable desaster for the desktop users. Especially when I think of the real *average next door users* not the techie guys who may be happy (or at least not cry to loud about it) to invest some time tweaking their Xfce or KDE to behave more or less like their old gnome2 did. And if you really insist, I can give you detailed reports about what kind of problems those users have with the current DEs in Debian including gnome3, but I don't want to bloat this mail anymore. I just can guarantee you now, the panel in gnome3-fallback being black is not one of them. ;) From my point of view, as said I can't comment much on the technical aspects here. I can just ask those who may have the ability to do so, to do it in a fair way, with as less prejudice as possible. Again, for the users that will have an issue with the current envisioned upgrade-path. For those users not so keen about adding a third-party repo to their sources.list, those users not knowing about the possibility to do so, those users that will get pissed. regards Michael P.S.: I know there is already work in progress for MATE for jessie, I just think that is too late. But I don't want to trip on anyones toes here....AFAIK is completely impossible that Debian ships MATE for Wheezy. Wheezy has been frozen time ago and by policy no new packages are allowed in the archive for testing during the freeze.
It is *not* about me and I know already all available options in all possible flavors and directions available as of today for wheezy.If you want a "classical" desktop your main options are: gnome3-classic, XFCE and LXDE. You have also cinnamon on sid (it won't make to wheezy)
It may be for you or for some others, but not for all a viable option. Most definitely not for me, the local and remote folks I asked around the globe. Don't get me wrong most of them could probably "get along" with the fallback mode after some degree of tweaking, but they would miss A LOT! Some examples? In no particular order: The complete infrastructure under gnome-fallback is a *completely* *different* horse. Some would say it is not even a horse, it is rather a mule! That "mule" behaves utterly different when it comes to several aspects. The panel (no free arranging of applets / starters; not all applets ported; simple right-click does not work anymore, alt or even alt+super+click is needed now; menus arranged in a completely different and un-logical fashion;...). No language / keyboard settings in GDM anymore (Oops, you speak a different language with a different keyboard layout then the system default? Hope you did not use any fancy symbols for your password then!). The control-center, a lot of stuff is missing. Gone are the days you can keep your laptop running when closing the lid. Want to prohibit display blanking? Sorry, gone too. That list goes on and on (ask the web for a more comprehensive list) and some of those shortcomings can be tweaked away, which means effort and grief in varying degree. In short, gnome3-fallback just looks at the upper surface almost like gnome2 did, but is, behaves, works completely different. Fun fact there... I happen to be forced to work with Redmond OS since windows 95. From Windows 95 up to Windows 7 the design did change *a lot*, it got more features, some options got re-arranged *slightly* but the overall way to handle a windows-system has never changed a bit. It was always the same as I sat in front of a new windows release the first time. Five minutes and I found everything and realised that "under the hood" everything is actually almost exactly the same as before. *No* research to get going necessary! I don't want to praise MS here (crap and the wrong development model remains crap and wrong) but they got one thing right, don't shock your users too much!Gnome3-classic (fallback) is the option more like to what was gnome2. I have been using it for a while and is a good option if you want a desktop like gnome2.
I kind of insist it being in jessie ;) And yes, that makes another good point why the gnome3-fallback just can't feel like the real thing. It is supposed to be for those users that 1.) can't use the shell as no 3D acceleration available 2.) absolutely can't or don't want to work with a new and different desktop-paradigm, with accepted pain and grief in varying detail... Do we think our users to be that little worth? That they can go along with something a bit *like* what they were used to or want to use? I tend to think in other magnitudes there. Please, the best option that is available. Guess what can give you that experience.What bothers me is that gnome3-classic will be deprecated with the next release of GNOME. I hope that MATE can make into Debian for Jessie.
Regards!
regards MichaelP.S.: Hum... that one actually was short enough that I do not feel like apologizing :)