Re: debian mate
Am 20.11.2012 23:14, schrieb Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez:
So much for the general rules... but exceptions ARE possible! And I just
try to make a case here about how important it might be!
On 20/11/12 22:55, Michael Schmitt wrote:
If one likes Gnome2.x or MATE or not is a question of taste, to
acknowledge that many users are just mad about Gnome3 is a fact. To
offer no real sane upgrade-path for those users is... dunno how to say
it in another way, it is just insane! I did invest some time with
thinking about all of this including talking to some MATE folks and
current squeeze-gnome-users, and again thinking and thinking... imho it
must be done everything possible to try to circumvent that imho probable
desaster for the desktop users. Especially when I think of the real
*average next door users* not the techie guys who may be happy (or at
least not cry to loud about it) to invest some time tweaking their Xfce
or KDE to behave more or less like their old gnome2 did. And if you
really insist, I can give you detailed reports about what kind of
problems those users have with the current DEs in Debian including
gnome3, but I don't want to bloat this mail anymore. I just can
guarantee you now, the panel in gnome3-fallback being black is not one
of them. ;)
From my point of view, as said I can't comment much on the technical
aspects here. I can just ask those who may have the ability to do so, to
do it in a fair way, with as less prejudice as possible. Again, for the
users that will have an issue with the current envisioned upgrade-path.
For those users not so keen about adding a third-party repo to their
sources.list, those users not knowing about the possibility to do so,
those users that will get pissed.
P.S.: I know there is already work in progress for MATE for jessie, I
just think that is too late. But I don't want to trip on anyones toes
AFAIK is completely impossible that Debian ships MATE for Wheezy. Wheezy
has been frozen time ago and by policy no new packages are allowed in
the archive for testing during the freeze.
It is *not* about me and I know already all available options in all
possible flavors and directions available as of today for wheezy.
If you want a "classical" desktop your main options are: gnome3-classic,
XFCE and LXDE. You have also cinnamon on sid (it won't make to wheezy)
It may be for you or for some others, but not for all a viable option.
Most definitely not for me, the local and remote folks I asked around
the globe. Don't get me wrong most of them could probably "get along"
with the fallback mode after some degree of tweaking, but they would
miss A LOT! Some examples? In no particular order: The complete
infrastructure under gnome-fallback is a *completely* *different* horse.
Some would say it is not even a horse, it is rather a mule! That "mule"
behaves utterly different when it comes to several aspects. The panel
(no free arranging of applets / starters; not all applets ported; simple
right-click does not work anymore, alt or even alt+super+click is needed
now; menus arranged in a completely different and un-logical
fashion;...). No language / keyboard settings in GDM anymore (Oops, you
speak a different language with a different keyboard layout then the
system default? Hope you did not use any fancy symbols for your password
then!). The control-center, a lot of stuff is missing. Gone are the days
you can keep your laptop running when closing the lid. Want to prohibit
display blanking? Sorry, gone too. That list goes on and on (ask the web
for a more comprehensive list) and some of those shortcomings can be
tweaked away, which means effort and grief in varying degree. In short,
gnome3-fallback just looks at the upper surface almost like gnome2 did,
but is, behaves, works completely different. Fun fact there... I happen
to be forced to work with Redmond OS since windows 95. From Windows 95
up to Windows 7 the design did change *a lot*, it got more features,
some options got re-arranged *slightly* but the overall way to handle a
windows-system has never changed a bit. It was always the same as I sat
in front of a new windows release the first time. Five minutes and I
found everything and realised that "under the hood" everything is
actually almost exactly the same as before. *No* research to get going
necessary! I don't want to praise MS here (crap and the wrong
development model remains crap and wrong) but they got one thing right,
don't shock your users too much!
Gnome3-classic (fallback) is the option more like to what was gnome2. I
have been using it for a while and is a good option if you want a
desktop like gnome2.
I kind of insist it being in jessie ;) And yes, that makes another good
point why the gnome3-fallback just can't feel like the real thing. It is
supposed to be for those users that 1.) can't use the shell as no 3D
acceleration available 2.) absolutely can't or don't want to work with a
new and different desktop-paradigm, with accepted pain and grief in
Do we think our users to be that little worth? That they can go along
with something a bit *like* what they were used to or want to use? I
tend to think in other magnitudes there. Please, the best option that is
available. Guess what can give you that experience.
What bothers me is that gnome3-classic will be deprecated with the next
release of GNOME. I hope that MATE can make into Debian for Jessie.
P.S.: Hum... that one actually was short enough that I do not feel like