Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 11:53:04AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> I strongly agree that Sven Luther is a disruptive element, and
> his presence hurts the project more than it helps. I have found a
> pattern of behaviour from him, where any discussion first focuses on
> blame allocation, and swiftly proceeds to personal recrimination,
> mischaracterization, and extreme polemics. Indeed, it is my
> experience that his prolific, rude, and relentless insults,
> misquotes, and distortions often result in delays in discovering the
> correct technical solution to the problem being investigated.
This comming from you, who insulted me on irc together with jonas while i may
have argued, but never used a and insulting word, about the ramdisk generation
issue, i guess you have no shame.
> By itself this would not be enough, but the pattern of
> bahaviour has lead to people opting not to join the kernel team,
> myself included.
You did never intent to do so, since you clearly said numerous time that you
where frustrated with the kernel team taking over your work on kernel-package,
and that you put self-compiled kernels at a higher priority than the official
debian kernels.
Already people like Bastian Blank are so frustrated with you that they
repeteadly threatened to remove all dependency on kernel-package from the
kernel, and which i tried to convince not do to anything hasty since i
believed in agreement with you that this would not be the best for debian.
> A recent example of his not keeping the personal attacks away
> even after repeated requests and admonitions can be seen in the
> recent escalation to the tech ctte, where Ian had to repeatedly
> rebuke Sven, and even then he did not refrain.
Yeah, sure, i apologized for that, i was beside myself, and should have stayed
away from a computer during it. You don't say a word of this, right ? And i
never saw any excuse coming from your part when you and jonas insulted me on
irc, while i believe i have always presented apologizes and tried to restart
the thread positively. On this exact issue with jonas, i 4 times tried to
forget all my grieves, and provide reasonable, constructive and friendly
further technical content, only to had it ruined again by jonas behavior. Not
one or twice, but 4 times, and even when i proved him without doubt that there
was no way his point could be possible, with a lengthy code analysis of the
kernel did he relent and accept this. And then he credited jurij, but not me
in the changelog entry closing the bug.
> Sven has not limited his activities to a single mailing list
> in the past, and this recaltricanse, refusal to listen to moderating
> voices, or even rebukes from the tech-ctte folks (and I do not mean
> myself), and the creation of a hostile working environment in any
> aspect of the project he touches is a reason this action should
> proceed.
Thanks so much. This is how you repay me for taking care of kernel-package
when you where away on medical trouble, but what could i expect more from you.
The exact same thing you accuse me of, you are self subject to to some degree,
and my error has been not to back away and let you have the final word, as i
did in person in erkelenz with jonas because i noticed it may end badly had i
not.
> I do not have a comment on his technical expertise, but
> echnical expertise does not trump collegiality. I am not asking for
> Mr. Rogers neighborhood here, I have been in too many flamewars not
> to know a certain degree of friction is inevitable in a large
> organization like Debian. Sven is one of two people I think of as
> having a deleterious systemic effect.
I believe i am one of the only who speak up when i see manifest errors being
done, and this together with english not being my native tongue, and maybe a
fault in my caracter who make me to emotive on this things, lead to obvious
clash when faced with people who have the same character dispositions. This
includes you, jonas and fjp, altough i believe that i could work with all of
you except jonas just nicely despite this.
So, before you bane me, please look at your own reflection on this, and how
you handled the selfsame situation you accuse me of.
Finally, i don't think i need to apologize for being to emotional in wanting
to make debian the best distribution out there, and pointing out technical
errors, even if not in the best of form, but really falling on me like a pack
of wolves when i cried out for help on handling this issue is not the ideal i
see in debian, and make me think twice about investing so much of my time in
it.
Friendly,
Sven Luther
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