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Re: Need for launchpad



Hi Torsten,

On Sunday 08 January 2006 12:20, Torsten Landschoff wrote:
> Hi Stephan,
>
> On Sun, Jan 08, 2006 at 11:25:28AM +0100, Stephan Hermann wrote:
> > Hehe...well, it's a matter of working behaviour. I never said, that
> > working from the CLI is not faster or more productive sometimes. What I'm
> > trying to say is, that this "arrogant elite thinking" must go away. We
> > have to focus on what we all want, that is bring good software to the
> > world. For that, we have to find a simple and usable solution, that
> > everyone can work with. Not only the so called elite, or actually those
> > people who think they are.
>
> Funny, I thought the goal is that our users can work with our product.
> You seem to suggest that we should make it as easy to change it.

Sure, this implies that we have tools, where normal people can work with. 
Normal people barley or never used cli tools. So, thinking about those 
people, we have to change some ways. It means that even more people will find 
their way to contribute to free and open source software. Thinking about 
support, translations, ideas. Working for such a project like Debian, Ubuntu, 
Fedora, Gentoo, you name it, doesn't mean only packaging, writing code or 
administrating something. The masses of the users are just using our systems 
to work in their office, their home, or whatever you can use our systems. 
Those users will contribute back. And that should be the goal, contributions 
from the "outside world".

For this, Launchpad is a beginning, well actually for me and for many other 
people. Even my workflow was getting better, when I'm working with the Malone 
Frontend, when I can see, where this bug is reported, all over the different 
distros.

>
> > If we are not thinking about the people, who can't handle the console, or
> > are not able to fullfill simple tasks with the cli, for those people we
> > need at least another way. If Debian never followed this example, well I
> > think there wouldn't be a webinterface for Debian BTS at all and all the
> > informations of debian on the webpage, we would find in gopher or txt
> > files which i have to search with archie.
>
> The web interface is there to make it easier to find something in the
> BTS. The difference is that it our (free) code and we can rely on it
> being available. If we move development to launchpad we don't have a
> guarantee that it won't go away some day.

Hmm, what you say is, that if Google is going away someday, we are all 
stucked, because we don't bookmark everything? Means, we shouldn't use Google 
anymore, because it could just go away? But, what you say could also mean, 
that we shouldn't use RedHat, because RedHat could be bankrupt at some day, 
and just go away? Or if Debian will loose all sponsorships, and is just 
disappearing, then it means I shouldn't use Debian, because it could be 
that...?

> OTOH I'd like to have Debian move to using a single SCM and storing all
> packages in repositories. Currently you need to know Subversion, CVS and
> tla if you want to be sure you can directly work with the Debian
> sources. Our tools could also be better integrated. Source packages use
> umpteen different patch systems etc. which should be done away with.

But this was the advantage of Debian, as Andrew pointed out:

Quote of Message-ID: <20060108093927.GB2722@suffields.me.uk>
" I don't think
Debian would even be here today if random people couldn't throw
together stuff they wanted to see done on top of the stuff we already
have; that's how most of our current infrastructure was created."

So, instead of improving, other systems were invented. Which is not bad, but 
gives the people the choice what they want to use. So today, we will see 
rules from scratch, with cdbs, with debhelper, with simple-patchsys, dpatch, 
or directly patched sources, where the patch will show up in the diff.gz.

These discussions are old, and people are trying to solve them. 

>
> It would be nice to change this but I don't have the time and motivation
> to even try it. Perhaps you do?

Right now, I'm trying to change my patch behaviour, and use bzr (bazaar-ng). 
It's quite easy to use, when you prepare a plan how to use it.
But in longer timeframes, I can't await the official birthday of HCT, because 
what I saw during the presentation from Scott at last years Ubuntu 
Conference, it's quite amazing how easy package management and source 
management can be for us debian/ubuntu developers.

Well, we can't change the world totally, but avoiding a tool, because it's 
free, but non-free source, it's more a joke then anything else, because I had 
to avoid many of the services I need in my daily developers world.

regards,

\sh



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