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Re: Is Ubuntu a debian derivative or is it a fork?

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Matt Zimmerman wrote:

If all of the patches were to be filed in the BTS, automation would be the
only feasible way to do it.
This is a quite strange statement to me.  Could you please comment on this
more detailed.

It has been said that it is too much of a
burden for Debian maintainers to process the patches, and Ubuntu currently
has a miniscule number of developers compared to Debian.
I wonder why the statement
      "We are much less people than you."
should lead to the consequence:
      "That's why we refuse to work together with you in an effective way."

Not every change is an indication of a problem.  Consider, for example, the
hundreds of Python transition patches.
I guess each patch has a certain sense.  Everything which makes sense is worth
a bugreport "wishlist".  The term "problem" is not really appropriate but I
the lack of a missing enhancement is also something I would love to be solved.

It makes more sense to make the
changes, and make the patches available to Debian, than to ask the Debian
maintainer to do the work for us by filing a bug report.
Obviousely not.  If you see that this way does not work why not trying it
on a different way, I repeat to save the time of the "miniscule number
of developers".  Why not joining the Debian-Python list and make some
noise about the things which should be done.  Why not having even a single
list debian-ubuntu-python list.  I guess we have exactly the same problems
in Python transition (well, we will have them later, but they will have to be
solved anyway).  If you do not agree here with me than I wonder why
you are denying that Ubuntu is a fork (which I did not stated but which
would become obvious to me if you would say that Python transition of
Ubuntu is something different than of Debian).

The same logic applies to many bugs as well.
I'm sorry I'm missing the logic behind your arguments.

Would it really be better to
have an open bug report in debbugs, than a patch on people.ubuntu.com?
Yes.  A closed bug would be even better and I told you ways how to
accomplish that.

Debian uses python2.3 by default.  This isn't broken; it's just the way
things must be in order to release Sarge.  Meanwhile, Ubuntu has made a
release with 2.3, and is preparing for the next release with python2.4 as
default.  When Debian makes the same transition, hopefully the patches from
Ubuntu will save some time and effort on the part of Debian maintainers.
Yes - I really hope we could profit from this and that's why I would love to
see a set of well documented patches.  If you think that the BTS is not
appropriate for this kind of stuff, do you see any other ways to have
patches or say solution (=patches of a size a developer could handle including
documentation which might be an open discussion list or whatever).

I don't think that I've made such an assumption, though there are several
unequivocally critical voices in this thread.
I admit there are and sometimes there are hard facts for the reasons of
the critics.  But I consider myself as completely neutral and just try
to make the lowest effort for both to get the maximum profit for both.
I hand out Ubuntu-CDs to random people I meet and do not tell something
bad about Ubuntu at exhibition boothes.  But once I was asked by a visitor
of the booth why we Debian people are fighting so hard against Ubuntu.
I hate this kind of strange preconception because I for myself do not
fight against anybody but want to enhance cooperation.

We are doing what we can, with the resources available to us, to make our
work available to Debian, through the patch publishing mechanism, and
cooperation with Debian teams.  If there is a different approach which could
be implemented using the same resources, I am willing to listen to such
proposals, but we have very limited developer resources compared to Debian.
What about using common lists for things like Zope or Python development.
They are quite low volume lists and the communication could be drastically

And I repeat: Group maintainance.

Kind regards



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