On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 04:07:44PM +0200, Ingo Juergensmann wrote: > > right, killfiling makes debian-devel more readable, but it's not a > > solution but another problem. if people can't follow the lists because > > the way people talk there is just getting out of control we loose our > > most important communication channel. it definitely shouldn't be like > > that! i'd rather like to see people develop some more of what we call > > "streitkultur" in german, the ability to discuss or argue about things > > in a professional way, without insulting others or getting too personal > > about it. that includes not being hostile, not getting offended too > > easy, staying on topic, not necessarily commenting on everything and so > > on... > > ... and communicate with each other. Et voila, there it is our main problem > again... right, communication and the way communication is done is a problem for debian, but i don't think the only way to get communication wrong is not to communicate. you could for example also miss the tone, and i think some people here miss the tone more often than necessary. and this might give people (see the thread) the idea that not reading the others mails or posts is a good idea. that said, i don't want my oppinions here to be applied to the current discussion. i don't know anything about the communication between you guys and can't comment on it. i just notice that debian-devel is a very good example of useless and harmfull yelling at each other. now, it has been like that for quite a while, so that is nothing new. still, we are in the same boat and we should all agree that it is unrealistic to have the same opinion about everything. it is also unrealistic that everyone has indefinite amounts of time on his/her hands to spend on debian tasks. and we all know that there are bugs in every system, even in debian ;) so the only thing we can do is tackle these problems in a calm and diplomatic way so we don't create too much friction and don't introduce more bugs. for me debian (the distribution) has always been about stability, and i think we should apply the same principles to debian (the project). a GR to *force* amd64 into sid, let alone sarge, the idea to remove people from jobs they do well, talking about forks and insulting coworkers is *definitely* not helping here. i have to admit that many things in debian are quite obscure and behind the scenes (for me more that for you), and that it would be cool if that could change. but if we want that, then we need a way to achieve it in a sane way. we are not in a corporation and don't want to file project reports every week, which is understandable. and one last thing: debian is a *huge* organisation. so things take incredible amounts of time, and changes don't come easy. sometimes things take too long, but the only thing you can do is keep going and not freak out over it. disclaimer: i am not a dd, so perhaps some things are easier for me. cu robert -- Robert Lemmen http://www.semistable.com
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