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Re: Old-timer installer, task-sysvinit?

Quoting Cyril Brulebois (2014-11-23 13:13:05)
> Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> (2014-11-23):
>> Quoting Erich Schubert (2014-11-23 09:50:12)
>>> 1. There is a wide consensus that Debian continues to allow other 
>>> init systems.
>>> 2. The installer (currently) does install systemd.
>>> 3. The installer CAN be used to install sysvinit via preseeding (and 
>>> admins should know how to use preseeding to install systems...)
>> I believe third point above is inaccurate: Debian-installer has hooks 
>> to pass hints to packages (debconf preseeding) and hooks to execute 
>> shell scripts.  What is currently possible is only the latter: Spawn 
>> a shell script late in the install process to replace init-related 
>> packages already installed by debian-installer.
> Well, I'm really unsure what you're calling inaccurate in the third 
> point.

It is that "preseeding" is the mechanism used - but I may indeed be 

I assumed the term "preseeding" meant "debconf preseeding", but realize 
now that indeed both <https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed> 
and e.g. <https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apbs01.html.en> 
uses the term without direct ties to debconf.  Both those documents do, 
however, describe [not-only-debconf] preseeding as "a way to set answers 
to questions asked during the installation process".

I consider preseeding to be feeding answers to questions before asked.  
Executing shell scripts is something else, IMO.  You likely disagree.

> I think I've mentioned that a few times already, but here's yet 
> another reference:
>   https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=668001#60

Yes.  And thanks for pointing to that at several occasions recently.

> That's preseeding, that gives a system running sysvinit-core at the 
> first boot without any further interaction, replacing systemd bits by 
> sysvinit ones after the initial debootstrap.

Ok, I understand now that preseeding not only means answering questions 
before asked, but also non-declarative automation.  That's new to me.

> If you're unhappy about the initial systemd installation, that's too 
> bad, because we're not going to change debootstrap, especially not at 
> this late stage of the release cycle, to behave differently depending 
> on the target distribution. The current script covers all suites from 
> etch (etch, lenny, squeeze, wheey, jessie, and now stretch), and it'd 
> really be nice if that could stay the case.

I am unhappy about the need for messing non-declaratively with 
debian-installer in order to override default choice of init system.

It is nice that debian-installer provides hooks to do dangerous things, 
but I find it worrisome that changing init system involves use of that.

> There won't any more debconf, udeb, or whatever addition going to 
> happen. It means additional work (nobody has been doing that for a 
> whole release cycle), more maintenance, and… it's just too late.

Why do you say "for a whole release cycle"? Only late in the release 
cycle did init system become changeable without violating policy 
(removing core packages).

Please cc me on replies.

 - Jonas

 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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