Re: [Debconf-team] Regarding DebConf13 planned location
Hi,
(dropping cc:s as everyone is subscribed...)
I tried to inniate a conversation with Moray and Gunnar last night, but sadly
failed, so here are my thoughts only.
My general comment is, that I have not seen any new arguments in the last
seven days or so. (I also spoke with Ana on Sunday for more than an hour, and
while I learned several personal things, I didnt see any new global points.)
Instead we are going in circles (like we have been going for some time
already). This going in circles hurts us in several ways, one of them is that
its taking time from actually documenting problems and proposed solutions. But
anyway:
1.) budget worries:
Yes, switzerland is expensive. No matter where. And actually the food +
hosting prices for Le Camp are on the lower end of what is possible there.
Timing is also critical here, restarting the venue process will very probably
result in halting many sponsorship efforts and also will make us miss the rest
of the 2012 budget window.
(Also please note that Richards budget proposal estimates 100k incoming
sponsorship. If we keep going as we have been going I consider this too be to
low, as we already have 70k collected.)
And finally, the risk for this is with the dc13.ch association, _not_ with
Debian. There is no Debian money at risk.
2.) Privacy.
First, while Le Camp indeed does not provide _many_ privacy opportunities for
individuals who want to hack alone, there _are_ some. And then, there are
_plenty_ of opportunities for small groups of hackers. There are 20 houses,
and plenty of space outside (with wireless, add an power extension cable and
you can spent days there), so if you prefer to hack in a small group, thats
totally easy.
If we'd go to Interlaken, there would be less private hacking spaces.
And as for personal privacy (as opposed to hacking privacy), Interlaken would
only provide this for the rich, who can afford there own hotel room. For
sponsored attendees Interlaken offers _less_ privacy. (Did you look at Balmers
tent village? Balmers itself? I did...)
Interlaken is really like Cowgate hostels were, or maybe worse.
(And please keep in mind that the other "cheap" option the localteam managed
to find where bunkers (as in nuclear shelters).)
3.) Complaints on the list vs approval / applaus elsewhere
I cannot ignore the fact, that the recent complaints on the list where from
people who can afford hotels, fearing of missing their luxury. (And such
privacy as demanded is luxury IMO. Understandable luxury, but still.)
OTOH I have heard quite a lot of people (in person) approving or applauding
our plans to hold DebConf in the Le Camp setting. (Including people with
children, btw.)
4.) Le Camp has luxury options (if you manage to share a car)
Plenty of hotels are in 20km range of Le Camp, which amounts to 30min driving
at most. Considering most people (who dont work at home) have a longer daily
communte to work, I believe it's feasable for those who like a private room to
take their share of effort and do car sharing with some likely minded people.
I do expect 25 cars from DebConf people at least. So there should be plenty of
options for car sharing.
On Montag, 26. November 2012, Herman Robak wrote:
> True. I would think that the expectations that you are refuting come from
> the _trend_, rather than the average. It looks like the accomodation
> standard has risen from Debconf to Debconf, and that the low end was about
> a decade ago.
>
> In the light of that, Le Camp is a "regression".
*g* - so true.
On Montag, 26. November 2012, Thomas Koch wrote:
[interlaken]
> - The conference rooms and hacklabs options aren't worked out. What's the
> exact distance from different accomodations? What do you consider 10
> minutes walking distance? Google Maps gives me 1.3km (or 17 min) for
> Balmers to Jungfrau Park: http://goo.gl/maps/ekxV2
Balmers tent village is even further away.
> - The Balmers hostel doesn't seem fitting for me. Considering that we take
> all small rooms, it's still possible that the other rooms are packed with
> noisy children (or young tourists). What would be the price to rent all of
> Balmers?
The prices are ok'ish, but the type of accomodation is certainly not better
than at Le Camp. Privacy? Hahaha.
> Regarding le camp I have only one question (or need for confirmation): Do
> they agree to let us put at least 5 small tents next to each accomodation
> house?
yes
> (Payment for people in the tents should be the same since they also
> use the facilities of the houses.)
it's actually less. (10 CHF per night)
> About le camp I like:
>
> - It's nice there! Hacking outside on the gras anyone?
> - Everything is really near. We don't lose time walking. One can even go
> for a quick nap between sessions.
> - We're close together. Searching for somebody? He's only 5 minutes away!
> - We're alone there. No crazy wedding in the hotel or drunken locals (or
> was it a DD?) to wake us up in the night.
/me too
> My take on some of the concerns:
>
> - Yes, it's expensive. But I believe that can be managed somehow.
>
> - Let's try to organize room mates well ahead: Who goes to bed early? Who
> likes to hang around until late night? Who comes with family?
>
> - It might be possible to organize a daily shopping tour if necessary. The
> swiss people can also buy a stock of consumables and sell those. (shampoo,
> tampons, cigarettes, drinks, towels, toothpaste, ...?) I will buy the
> leftovers and care for their consumption.
yes. (And I do think other concerns are handable as well.)
On Montag, 26. November 2012, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> Let me just state that no matter what happens, I'll be both attending
> DebConf13 and participating in the orga-team from now on. Be it in
> helping with the investigation of new locations or with making the
> current location work as good as possible.
thanks for that.
I'm still unhappy with this mail, as don't think I have covered all the
important bits yet, but I need to get some work done here too, esp. if I want
to have some free time tonite, which I want.
IMO we have decided on Le Camp in announced DebConf team meetings three times
already, thus I'm reluctant to decide again, esp. as I cannot really see much
/ any new input, just a loud minority.
Changing plans now will probably make other people cry out loud, plus it's
very likely to demotivate large parts of the local team, including myself.
I went to Interlaken and Le Camp, with an open mind about Interlaken and quite
negative thoughts about Le Camp. After seeing both, I dont think Interlaken is
a good option anymore and while I totally agree, there are things we need to
work out with Le Camp, I do think thats the best option for us. If it werent
so exhausting to discuss this over and over (with all the rumors to debunk and
so many thoughts going in negative directions (about issues) instead of
seeking for solutions) I would find it rather amusing that people based on
information from the net come to the same conclusions I had before seeing
things for real.
Oh, and this (all) is my personal opinion, the chairs so far failed to get
together. Yesterday I've sent a short mail to Moray and Gunnar, stating I was
too tired (from travelling mostly) for a proper mail but that basically I
havent heard anything new (and thus I'm still in favor of signing tomorrow)
and asking for their thoughts (in private). Sadly they share their thoughts,
so I'm at loss at what we as chairs "team" think/propose.
Thinking further, I must say that I am *just now* about to change my mind
(about signing now). (After writing the last paragraph (and actually
influenced by talking with Ganneff last night.))
Probably, maybe, we shouldn't sign this tomorrow. Maybe it's more important to
have a fourth meeting and risk having a good DebConf (or one at all) for the
price of having a good team decission. Maybe we will miss a DebConf in 2013,
but we will have a least improved our processes.
Maybe this is more important than having a good DebConf. Maybe we need a bad
DebConf to learn.
I actually don't think so (as I believe the problems and tasks are clear, and
because I still think we will be able to provide a great DebConf at Le Camp
and also because I do see great danger_s_ (which have not been discussed as
much) in canceling now), but as a chair I'm only empowered to break ties.
OTOH, canceling now is also very much unfair to those who have worked three
times on a consensus. And it also has the danger of making our processes
weaker: will a meeting decission ever be taken for real again?
Oh well. :/
Or maybe, if Le Camp agrees once again to delay the signing, people will
believe those who say that Le Camp is a nice trustworthy organisation and a
contract is just something written on paper. What is important (IMNSHO) is
what we make out of the opportunities and how we work together (between us and
between us + a venue), this piece of paper with the word "contract" on it, is
just a frame to make things happen.
I will ask Gunnar and Moray if we can meet today on IRC to decide what to do,
or if we need to ressort to mail. (Or what to do else.)
cheers,
Holger, who is still happy to have seen both Interlaken and Le Camp
and who is sad that people don't trust my assessment.
Sorry for the long mail, but I dont have time to make it
shorter, I need to stop working on this now. I have some
client obligations too and today I already miss 50% of that.
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