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Re: List/IRC climate issues (was: What do you want to learn?)

On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 13:18, pia@linux.org.au wrote:

> Do you have any Debian SIGs or groups in the area? 

Honestly? I have no idea.

> Hmm... I've had idiots speak to me, but both females and males (it certainly 
> isn't only men that make it hard for women to get involved in computers).

Thus why I use 'idiot', not 'male idiot'. :)

> I 
> guess that you can't wrap every person in cotton wool, or expect half the 
> species to be treated especially nice just because of their sex. 

Thus why I use 'people who want to avoid idiots', not 'women who want to
avoid idiots'.

Now, I appreciate and accept that there are people in the world for whom
'just deal with it' is a perfectly valid response.

But there are also people in the world who don't want to 'just deal with
it', or for whom 'just dealing with it' involves avoiding it. There are
many reasons for that, including health issues. Those reasons are
perfectly valid, and are the individual's choice.

If a group's philosophy is 'just deal with it', they will essentially be
banning those whose 'dealing with it' strategy is avoidance.

I am NOT talking about women and men, I'm talking about idiot-ignorers
and idiot-avoiders. Genderless.

> I think that women 
> groups really need to understand that women groups are only necessary in our 
> paternalistic western societies (not all societies are paternalistic, and 
> I'm not suggesting that only western ones are), because we still have some 
> work to do.

Thus the existing HOWTO Encourage Women, and the when-I-get-time HOWTO,
which will be a companion article aimed at women, rather than at LUGs.

> Women groups are a step in the process of bringing people back 
> together. A woman getting involved in Debian Women shouldn't use it as a 
> permanent safehaven/cage, and never truly get involved in the wider 
> community. If we segregate, the problem only gets worse. 


> PS - I am realising only really recently how much we have to fix ourselves 
> and our attitudes before we can fix the wider issues of opportunity and 
> treatment of women. 

Yeah. I've known this for years. :/
Both genders need to recognise gatekeeping behaviours and stop
performing them, and both genders need to recognise self-sabotaging
behaviours and stop doing them.

Wheee. It's going to be a stressful few generations. :( And it will take

But then, when my grandmother was raising my mother's generation, women
didn't handle the household money, and couldn't get jobs. I'd say we're
about halfway from there to full equality. :)

Jenn V.
    "Do you ever wonder if there's a whole section of geek culture 
        	you miss out on by being a geek?" - Dancer.
   My book 'Essential CVS': published by O'Reilly in June 2003.
jenn@anthill.echidna.id.au     http://anthill.echidna.id.au/~jenn/

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