Re: A question to the Debian community ...
On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 12:08:08PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Sven Luther <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes:
> > What do you believe is causing the noise in question ?
> Every time any topic comes up which comes anywhere near anything related
> to your experiences, you bring up your experiences in that thread. After
> that, various people (usually different each time) respond, you respond to
> every message everyone writes, various people respond to all your
> messages, and we go down the same path again.
The noise is only a symptom of the real problem though. Figthing the
symptom, epecially in the way it was tried this past year will have no
chance to stop the symptom, and as said the clumsy way this was handled
only increased the symptoms.
> I'm not calling this noise to belittle the problems in question. I don't
> necessarily agree with you, but I understand why you're upset. I'm
> calling this noise because it doesn't change anything, and because no
> matter how many times we go down this same discussion pattern, it's not
> going to change anything. It's just emotional venting, of the same
> emotions that have been vented many, many times before. We've been having
> exactly the same discussion in exactly the same way for something like two
> years now, and no one's mind is at this point going to change. In fact,
> the more that this comes up, the more set in concrete everyone's opinions
> are going to be, and the more people are going to develop knee-jerk
> reactions to the whole thing.
So, why not try to solve the issue ? The way it currently is, it only
encourages the noise to continue. Everytime i tried to stop it and
behave, i was punished worse for it, as the two latest cases have
showed, both after christmas where after a month and some of relative
silent i was suddenly going to be banned, and in late february, where my
two month self-imposed absence from debian lists was responded by a
renewed expulsion request.
> > And what do you believe would stop it ?
> For everyone talking about these things, most definitely including
> everyone who responds to you when you bring up your experiences, to stop
> unless there is some concrete evidence that something specific and
> immediate is going to change.
Nothing is going to change, we are at this since over a year now, and it
has only gotten worse, despite my numerous attempts at conciliation and
good behaviour. Neither the powers in debian who should have acted as
mediator, nor the other party, ever made any positive gesture to solve
this issue, and ressorted only to more abuse.
> Having a GR is just going to result in another long discussion, some
> conclusion which some people will be happy with and some people won't be
> happy with, and no real incentive to stop talking about it still. It
Which is why i told MJ Ray that i was unsure a GR would be a good idea,
but favour using this case as an experiment for setting up an
infrastructure able to deal with social problems in a fair and efficient
way, which debian sorely lacks.
> could change the situation for you personally if the GR overturns your
> suspension. I don't mean to imply it couldn't possibly do that. However,
> the discussion was specifically about the *noise*, and I don't see any
> sign that a GR would do anything about the noise, regardless of the
So, you don't believe in solving the problem which is causing the noise
in the first place ? Or maybe you do not believe Debian is capable of
growing up, and find an answer to such situations which don't deal with
shoting up one party ?
> It's painfully simple, so much so that it's a cliche, but it really does
> come down to deciding what may change and what won't and to stop spending
> energy, time, and resources on ineffectual things. There may be ways to
> change your situation (although given how many times the above pattern has
> been followed, I think that regardless of any merits the entire situation
> is now set in concrete), but discussing it publicly on mailing lists
> clearly isn't one of them, as has been demonstrated time and time again
> for more than a year now.
No, you are wrong. The reason this has ended as it is now, is that both
Anthony back then, and the DAMs more recently insisted in keeping these
discussions private, either fully private, or debian private.
> I probably won't respond further to this thread, for all the reasons
> spelled out above.
A shame, this only means this situation will perdure, until a more
radical solution against me is used, either a full ban from the mailist
lists, which was already tried, or more definitive methods debian is not
yet ready to ressort to.