Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
On 08/31/2015 05:14 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
Actually, there's a couple or three questions going begging here, that
I'd like to ask:
Sure, ask away! =)
(1) TJ, have you ever built LFS? Or, even better, built a running OS
on top of the Linux kernel without even the help of the LFS tutorial
and tool set?
No, I have never used LFS. I have, however rebuilt or otherwise
modified: Debian, Gentoo, RedHat and others over the last couple
decades. That is not including other things Unix: like Solaris. No, I
have not always had documentation and sometimes had to figure it would
myself.
Is there a more specific answer you wanted?
(1a) If you have, have you ever implemented your own init system for a
Linux-based OS that you built yourself?
No, I never had a reason to.
As with many things, necessity breeds invention. I have had no reason
to invent my own when I can modify an existing one to do what I want.
With respect, I doubt most programmers would bother creating an entirely
new init unless they had a pressing need or just wanted something new.
The whole point of open source is adaptation.
There are quite a few inits to chose from. The fact that Systemd was
created in addition to the dozen or so previously existed probably had
more to do with cgroups than anything else if you ask me.
(2) Having done that much, have you ever kept that system maintained
and updated, even at just the level of keeping only the critical
applications patched or updated against vulnerabilities on a timely
basis?
Yes, I have. I used to manage servers for ISPs. Yes, I'd even patched
them by hand because the OEM no longer provided updates.
Okay, there's actually one more question here:
(3) Have you ever done the first two while holding down a full-time,
40+ hour a week job that doesn't particularly make allowances for
employees that need to spend the time necessary for maintaining their
OS?
Well, I can honestly say "No." As I said, I have never bothered to
write a new init from scratch.
What you are really asking is when I was working other jobs as we all
have, and maintain my own systems as best I could on my own time.
Sure. We all do the best we can. None of us are perfect and I have
never claimed to be either.
If you have, how long did you keep it up without developing
personality issues for lack of sleep, developing dysfunctional
digestion problems like ulcers and diabetes, and/or ending up breaking
up your family?
Well, to be perfectly honest, I do have some of those problems. Some are
bad enough to where I am probably on medication for the rest of my
life. I even have a few others heaped on top of them that you didn't
mention, like cerebral palsy and arthritis. Actually, cerebral palsy is
why I got into computers in the first place.
I understand why you asked. You are probably wondering if I have
unreasonable expectations of others. I don't. I don't expect someone
like Doug to compile everything from scratch, or you to rebuild Debian
by yourself. Conversely, I do expect anyone - myself included - to back
up what they are saying with good reasons and at least some experience.
I also prefer that in discussions of this nature, that people maintain
some logical distance - separating the person from the code. Lennart
Poettering is not systemd and systemd is not Lennart Poettering. If that
is not possible, then I really see no point in continuing.
A lot of people posting over systemd forget or do not realize a lot of
important details - for example:
1. Many other people had added and subtracted from the code before you
or I ever got our hands on it, including Debian.
2. GCC is also a finicky beast, and is hardly bug free. It matters
what compiler is used, even when compiling the kernel, much less
anything else. You can introduce bugs into software just by using a
different version of GCC than what the developers are using.
3. The management tools for systemd are written in Python. I personally
find it a very questionable choice. It can be considered famous for
hard to find runtime bugs.
Take care!
T.J.
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