On 10/13/2014 05:16 PM, David L. Craig wrote: > On 14Oct14:0837+1100, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > >> On 14/10/2014 8:32 AM, John Hasler wrote: > >>> Andrei POPESCU writes: > >>>> Without an accurate count I'd say only about 1% (or less) of the >>>> subscribers are actually participating in these discussion. >>> >>> 1% participation in any discussion on a list such as this would be very >>> large. Passing a GR to take Debian closed-source and relicense >>> everything under the Microsoft EULA probably wouldn't get 2% to speak >>> up. (No, I'm not proposing that nor do I think that it could happen.) >> >> Hahaha M$ EULA .... I'm sure if they are watching, they'll be laughing >> their own heads off over the debacle of systemd for Linux (not just for >> Debian). >> >> Yes, of Debian user base, subscribers vs posters, 1% is huge! We aren't >> talking about a hobby project here -- most users are able to deal with >> many problems without needing to post to DU list. Many watch and never >> respond. Or, in my case, I rarely respond even though I do read a good chunk of what goes on in this list. Usually I don't have much to add that someone else hasn't already said. But even as an observer, I do learn a lot. :-) > And that is good since the traffic of just 1% is more than > many here can bear. But it is bad because we won't have a > clue what the silent majority thinks until they quietly stop > using Debian or not. I am sure that this statement of yours isn't too far off course, but I would like to add that there are plenty of people like myself that may not speak out publicly on the forum, but apt statistics and other actions of ours will show and count as our "speaking out". For example, I spoke out a lot against Gnome3. Myself and a friend spent a lot of time crafting the posts (trying to be passionate yet intelligent is a tricky line to walk) that went onto his blog (some even referenced on this list) trying to get our view point across on why Gnome 3 is terrible. I honestly feel as though few cared. That time, that frustration, and all of that energy didn't make much of an impact from my point of view. I don't give a damn what others say or how far Gnome 3 may or may not have come, I still have major frustrations with Gnome 3 as it severely impacts my work flow. My last experience with Gnome 3 (on an updated Fedora a few weeks ago) just continued to aggravate me (it is seriously like the devs know what I don't like and purposefully went full steam in that direction...grrr). Even my recent experiences with CentOS 7 and that weird default hybrid Gnome 3 desktop agitate me. Now, before I work myself up and stir up the Gnome 3 battles (eg: I lost; time to move on), the point I am trying to make is this: My vote against Gnome 3 is in my actions. I may not be (as) vocal about my anti-Gnome 3 stance as I once was, but I host 438 torrents (All legal! 80% are Linux distro ISO's) and Gnome 3 isn't a single one of them. I host the LXDE torrents instead. Every desktop I have runs LXDE. My apt statistics vote for LXDE. I have even started using alternative applications simply because the ones I used to love tie in too closely to Gnome 3. My actions tell my vote. When people ask me to weigh in on systemd, I realize how vocal the community is (which does raise concern with me) but I am not in a position yet to really cast an informed vote. We use RHEL/Scientific/CentOS at work, thus my only two real encounters with systemd have been: 1) experimentation with Debian Jessie at home 2) experimentation with CentOS 7 at work. I haven't used either significantly enough to really form an opinion on either side of this battle. Here is what I can say about my experiences so far. 1) A known bug with systemd and LXDE has *seriously* pissed me off in Debian Jessie and it has gone unresolved for months, but it is known and being worked on. The claim is it will be resolved before Jessie releases. If this is true, then there is no reason for me to vent about a known bug. However, if systemd continues to be the thorn in the side for LXDE at release time...well...my apt stats will clearly show me running anything else that works. The moment systemd seriously impacts my workflow in a manner I can not easily resolve, it's gone. 2) I like a few of the features of systemd we have seen in CentOS 7 at work. However, all of those are "well that might be nice in this one rare use case" type of features. Nothing has really excited us in the slightest or made any of my co-workers think anything better of systemd over anything else. In our testing there is absolutely zilch that makes systemd stand out in our day-to-day activities. And the only thing that makes it "worse" is that we have struggled getting the information we need because app_1 still logs the old fashion way and app_2 shoves everything into the systemd logging. What once was previously trivial, is now a pain in the @$$. Still, I am hoping that *if* systemd is the way of the future, then this is nothing more then a transitional pain I won't care about in the very near future. Heck, I may not care about it after the 7.1 release in which there are a dozen other things of higher priority (to us) I am hoping are fixed... Maybe I am wrong, but my personal opinion is this: I don't think most people really understand this "battle" and they won't until they start running systemd and see it first hand. Plenty of people will not care or notice at all. When Jessie releases, that is when I expect to see real, honest reviews of systemd in Debian. Where does it work? Where does it fail? Are people switching to Jessie, or is there sudden surge over at distro watch for a new distro call "Debian Jessie without systemd"? What init system will people /actually/ be running? What will be reported back via the apt stats? The Gnome 3 battle gave the community (IMO, the terrible...) Gnome 3, Unity (which was anything but unifying), MATE, Cinnamon, LXDE, and it seems like there are a dozen other desktops I haven't even tried that sprung up. Will there be the same kind of splintering/support with systemd? I don't know, but I am going to be watching quite closely. I am trying to give systemd a chance, but it is very much on the fence for me and I don't feel I can give a properly educated reason for one side or the other. Thus I have no real reason being vocal for either side. When I do make that decision, my actions will reflect my vote. > Jessie may need to be widely considered > the Vista of Debian releases before a majority of DDs are > willing to revisit the init default. Gah, I hope it doesn't get that far. At this time, I don't care which side it falls on, but a vista release is the last thing I want. Still, it does worry me ever so slightly if for no other reason than because of how worked up people are over this fight in /every/ community I am in. From the Debian list, to /., to reddit, to the local LUG, to even a very "excited" "debate" at Texas Linux Fest that ended when both sides agreed to disagree and leave. (It wasn't anything bad, but both sides were rather passionate and getting riled up when they decided it wasn't the time/place for it.) If there is enough backlash, then maybe it will be the vista release. But I honestly kind of doubt it. Many of the other Linux communities swallowed the pill without too much disruption... > The is currently no means to garner meaningful data about > Jessie's approval ratings, which likely means the release > team will, as usual, just guess what will fly. They've > had an enviable run, to be sure. Agreed. :-) ~Stack~
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